by joelbear 63 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Gumby,
I should have known you've never been wrong....damnation whats wrong with my thinker?
Thanks for letting me off the hook, I know expressions of faith are not always tolerated well around these parts.
I guess I have my share of agnostic blood flowing along with yours.
Your a good fellow Gumman.
Danny
Your a good fellow Gumman.
So are you
Gumby
Gumby,
You ask how we know there is a God? Would we "ever" know there is a God if we were never told there was one? What factual evidence that proves there is a God?
This is really old stuff and books have been written on each question in one form or another. Rehashing is somewhat boring. However, briefly, to add more confusion and bewilderment to the subject.........Keeping everything as simplistic as possible invoking thought and ???
The RAW Stuff or is it truth? ------Mankind is very smart and clever and should be proud of the many accomplishments. However, what is the business plan? Interesting question, huh?
I answer you by stating --- We are what we know in proportion to what we reveal and live to be according to our gifts and by our contribution to the society in which we live. Not very simple start is it? Now this could change based on several mitigating factors. Which will not be discussed here at this time.
You ask how we know there is a God? I ask, can you prove there is not one? Look around you. Pick any object you see. Chances are (within your own capabilities) you can probably make the same thing given the same materials. That object did not "evolve" by itself or fly together from some explosion. Some intelligent force independent of everything else made it into a functional, useful--whatever. Take the living organism. Take plane old dirt and make a living organism. Can't, can you? A little bit out of your abilities? Of course it is. It is way too complex to form without "something else," besides millions and millions of years sliding by on the scale of time. To say otherwise is scientific BS! Just try and make dirt! Can't, can you?
Would we "ever" know there is a God if we were never told there was one? Good question. If we were taught to think and ask questions, yes we would. The obvious question: Is this life all there is? Looking at the "facts" involving Science, which in most meaningful cases are extremely complex and beyond the scope of most lay people,......Oh yes! Stumbling blocks and the "unexplainable" is often white washed over to cover-up the inability to prove something in the laboratory. So, if it can't be repeated, used, controlled, reformed, made money from it,......get rid of it! Don't want to look "unwise," foolish or one of those supernatural "believers." It is done all the time at the top levels of research and when it comes to funding the programs, controllable facts only please. If Mankind does not control it, throw it out. Don't upset the status quo.
What factual evidence that proves there is a God? Covered some of that above. Look at the creations all around you. From people, mountains, planets, stars, etc.. You really think this stuff just appeared without being directed or designed by some complex action or force? Look around you. Look at dirt.(a fixation on dirt?) Can you make dirt? Why not? Put your hands into a vacuum chamber and form dirt from "nothing." Can't, can you? Why not? If a hundred billion years went by, could you then make dirt? Of course not- (you won't live that long). There must be something else of greater power beyond our understanding acting for a purpose to achieve an end.
What about the interesting quotes from these people:
"Either you think-or else others have to think for you and take power from you, pervert and discipline your natural tastes, civilize and sterilize you.
F. Scott Fitzgerald
Or what about this one?
"Words should not be withheld from the worthy, but the unworthy will be annoyed by the words of real men. The hearts of the unworthy and those who are alienated from reality are like wicks that have been drenched in water instead of oil. No matter how much fire you put to such a wick it will not burn."
Shihab al-Din al-Suhrawardi
The Mystical and Visionary Treatises
Did any quote above form by itself or by chance? Or was it organized to put forth a statement and thought which was conceived by a human being? A higher force perhaps?
Having fun: Or, did dirt do it? Maybe dirt is pretty smart after all and we just don't know it yet. What have we been missing? Should we talk to dirt? If dirt talks back, should we stop the use of drugs or alcohol or both? What if we like what dirt says?
Spiritually speaking of course:"Facts are what we believe by observing reality combined with our personal experience which are inculcated into our very fiber and is not limited to the simple physical laws that in trap the common everyday person. Facts are burned into our deepest personality which only the "Sovereign One" can read and judge us by our secret conscience, and our burning desire to know and to be part of a glory beyond comprehension." --- Mr. Kim
Didn't the Bible say something like: "Only the foolish one says there is no Jehovah."You can substitute GOD for Jehovah if you wish. The meaning is the same........
Laters, (Tired of having fun)
MR. KIM
Rehashing is somewhat boringI suppose it would be boring if anyone could logically answer the question presented, but so far nobody has. You say "look around you" to prove to yourself there is a god. OK....lets do that. Turn on the TV and watch CNN for awhile....or read the paper in the morning, or travel to a country where people are starving or being slaughtered. Now look around you. Who made these nice events? (I know you will say man did) OK ....man did. Now what? He is going to let all of mankind suffer cuz they screwed up? Then he's not real bright is he?
Gumby
good thread.....bringing it back to the top.............
Gumby, Gumby, Gumby,
OOOOOOOH WHAT YOU SAID: OK ....man did. Now what? He is going to let all of mankind suffer cuz they screwed up? Then he's not real bright is he?
The reason why you cannot understand and why you "cannot see" is obvious. You have made your choice before you ever posted on this forum years ago.
Your heart-felt disrespect to GOD and those that believe in a God is of course, your choice. A crying shame---
As I have been told, "do not cast pearls before swine." I think that is pretty good advice. So, I shall be good and say, "have a nice day."
Good by,
Mr. Kim
The reason why you cannot understand and why you "cannot see" is obvious. You have made your choice before you ever posted on this forum years ago.
As I have been told, "do not cast pearls before swine ." I think that is pretty good advice. So, I shall be good and say, "have a nice day."
Gee thanks MR.Kim for the kind words. I guess I'm a swine now eh? Whatever
As far as me making a choice before I came on this forum............ I take it you are able to know the past and about my life somehow. That's intresting because it seems most Christians seem to know the same stuff about me. They know my heart is bad and my eyes are closed to truth because I don't want to know what truth is.......well thats what I've been told anyway by people like yourself. The truth is.....I was a christian for about 7 years after exiting the dubs and I was braindead about things much like yourself.
I guess I thought you were OK there for awhile but your attitude towards me kinda changed all that. Your one shallow dude I must say......and a bit on the strange side
Gumby
Gumby,
Thought you had thick skin? Can't you take some "ribbing?" Just funning with ya! Geeze-o-lee! We still love you! Pushing buttons now and then keeps people alive and awake as at times, the old hum drum SSDD takes affect. (SSDD=Same shit different day) .
Shallow? Oh, come on. That really did hurt! I do "see" a great deal more than what I say or talk about. I just don't want the ridicule and hassle that goes along with the territory. So, Just a little here and there!
You are a good person and have progressed nicely over the last three years.-(how did I know that?) As a "watcher" you should know that the world is a complicated place and the people in it are the most unconventional lot around the subjects discussed on this forum.
And as you have expressed, in many places people are killing and torturing each other for a variety of reasons including religion, -death and destruction is an everyday act of life. -- I know this bothers you.
People are the proverbial "something else" and they do need direction for the safety of everyone.
You still drink coffee? (Just guessing of course.-or am I?) Keep working and paying those taxes----the Government needs them to keep us broke and under control.
Have a nice day Gumby and if you are ever in Colorado, You and your family are ALWAYS welcome!
Mr. KIM
The more I read the less I'm sure of.....it seems to me at times the bible was written to try to explain many of the questions man has always pondered and needed answers for?
If the issue of sovreignty was the real issue I though Job settled that better than any other man including Jesus. He lost all of his belongings, his family and had everyone turn against him and he still remained faithful while not even knowing the issue involved. No disrespect to Jesus but he was aware of the situation and the issue and also of the rewards for being faithful.
Another point on Adam and Eve is that they were babes as to badness...they lived in Paradise had never been tested and did not know that a talking snake was a deceitful angel...Eve probably thought Adam missed this one when he named everything. If you did not know better wouldn't you be inclined to listen to a talking snake or a at least a horse of course. Jesus a perfect individual disobeyed his parents by not following their instructions and remained at the Temple while they headed home, caused them lots of grief why would that not be considered an act of rebellion on a grand a scale as eating a forbidden fruit. In each case they made a conscience decision.
I know I'll get some flack for these thoughts but remember thats all they are.......thoughts
Shotgun,
You bring up some good points.
Seems as though every theologian/bible scholar, biblical comentator, has from day one offered up an explanation everything recorded in Gensis.
Can't just read the account of creation and accept what it says..............no way, one must ascribe meaning and understanding of the events. Poo poo.
Of course the snake didn't really speak(who say's), the tree of life/knowledge were only symbols(of course they were), about the only part of this story that has not been bastardized, changed to suit every whim of religious explainers is the cherubs placed by god, with twirling flaming swords. This little diddy is so archaic, so ridiculous to ponder, that even the most brash of learned 'believer's' seem to just accept this part, part and parcel.
If I were god and inspiring Moses to record the events of creation, I think I could have done alot more to help the succeeding generations of mankind........UNDERSTAND.......without all the EXPLANATION!!!!!!!
Danny
