by ClassAvenger 55 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • noko

    Aguest, much grace and wisdom you are showing and a great pleasure reading what you are writting! Much light shines from you dear one and I pray for your continued blessing from our Lord and Savior.

  • noko
    Why is the NWT the ONLY bible that translates this word as spirit Of the four bibles I have on hand and 27 on CD. ROM none translates as spirit --H7306 ruach roo'-akh Strongs; A primitive root; properly to blow, that is to breath; only (literally) to smell or (by implication perceive (figuratively to anticipate, enjoy):-accept, smell, X touch, make of quick understanding.

    ellderwho, here is the Basic English Bible rendering, the NWT is not the only Bible:

    Ec 3:19

    Because the fate of the sons of men and the fate of the beasts is the same. As is the death of one so is the death of the other, and all have one spirit. Man is not higher than the beasts; because all is to no purpose.

    ellderwho, the same word is rendered breath or spirit:

    xwr Ruwach (roo'-akh); Noun Feminine, Strong #: 7307

    wind, breath, mind, spirit
      1. breath
      2. wind
        1. of heaven
        2. quarter (of wind), side
        3. breath of air
        4. air, gas
        5. vain, empty thing
      3. spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
        1. spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour
        2. courage
        3. temper, anger
        4. impatience, patience
        5. spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)
        6. disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse
        7. prophetic spirit
      4. spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)
        1. as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being
        2. spirit (as seat of emotion)
          1. desire
          2. sorrow, trouble
          3. spirit
            1. as seat or organ of mental acts
            2. rarely of the will
            3. as seat especially of moral character

            The same word Ruwach is used in 3:19 as well as verse 3:21. The interpretor decides how to render the passage, it is clear to me what Solomon was talking about.

        3. ellderwho


          I stand corrected, I crossed referenced this to H7307 as I should have;

          From H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, that is a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figurativly life, anger unsubstantiality; by extention a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions):- air, anger blast, breath, breath, X cool, courage, mind X quarter, Xside, spirit ([-ual]), temptest, X vain,([whirl]) wind (-y).

          The point I was making is that the jw will use this word "spirit" in this text to say that a mans "spirit" is his "life force" and thats it. My argument to this Jw was the fact that if "spirit" is translated as "breath" it actually chages the thought given. My position is man has a soul,spirit,body. This is not the Jw position:

          But does each human have a spirit that goes on living as an intelligent personality after it ceases to function in the body? No; verse 19 answers that humans and beast "all have but one spirit." Based merely on human observation, no one can authoritatively answer the question raised in verse 21 regarding the spirit. Reasoning from the scriptures p383 para.2 . The fact that this makes reference to the spirit of a man an not the breath is deceiving.

          The Jws rebutal was that v21nwt who is there knowing the spirit of the sons of man whether it is ascending upward....

          Aguest states:Do you think there is a DIFFERENT spirit in them than in us?

          I might remind you we were discussing the Holy spirit, and who it was inhabiting, and for what reason,

          however, when Aguest refers me to Eccl. 3:19 in the NWT in refrences to sharing the same spirit or breath?

          .Ah, I see: you think that animals cannot receive God’s spirit.......... Do you think there is a DIFFERENT spirit in them than in us

          My point, is if the NWT is referenced to give biblical support it can very biased, in its wording. Let alone, confusing when trying to determine a point given.

          Do we share the same breath as the beast? I say yes.As do scripture.

          Do we have the same spirit as the beast, I believe scripture answers no.

          If by making my second point to Aguest seemed harsh, I apologize.

          Though, using the NWT in a biblical debate which in itself is highly scrutinized might not be the best choice to refer to for support.


        4. AGuest

          again, may you have peace.

          I wish to confess that I spent some great time responding... line by line... to your last couple of posts... and then I came to your "challenge." And rather than "bite," I have decided NOT to post my response... at least, not at this time, but rather... to concede to you. Not because you are "right"... but because of your "challenge." Therefore, I have "saved" my response for now, but perhaps not for all time.

          For before I answer your "challenge," I would like to ask a question of you... so that I can get to know just who and what you are. For you see, I know who I am, what I am... and by what means that I am such. I know who my Lord is, who my Father is... and how their spirit works. And I have nothing to prove... nor anything to gain by lying to you: for if you are Israel, or of those who go with them, then I am YOUR servant, just as I have been appointed to that position by my Lord. He bought me with his blood to do HIS will... and I have agreed to that "covenant". Therefore, those HE loves... I love also. And those who are his... I am to serve. In that light, therefore, I have spoken it to you just as I have heard it from my Lord; however, if it is insufficient for you, that is between you... and him.

          I am directed, then, by my Lord to ask a question of you... so as to know who and what YOU are... as well as "where" you are in your understanding. So, if you will be so kind, please make a reply... and if your answer is sufficient, I will then post my response (I have saved it):

          Tell me, please, what is the truth that sets YOU free, how and by what means?

          Again, I bid you peace.

          YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,


        5. ellderwho


          I will follow up in a week, for Im going on vacation saturday morning lots to do.

          hope to talk with you again as well as answer your question,

          In Christ


        6. AGuest

          It was a simple question, very, and one that had you known the answer could have be stated in the time it took you the make the above reply, as it does not require research.

          Thus, as I think it best to end this "debate"... as there seems to be no benefit in it to either of us (other than to give a witness to those who have watched - praise JAH!). It is obvious to me that you "see" what you choose to "see". Unfortunately, I do not have that freedom, for I willingly turned myself over to "see" as another GIVES me to see. Therefore, I will leave off with the thought that "he that is not against you is for you"... and vice versa.

          I do want to thank dear Noko for his wonderful "second witness,"... and I know how that information was "revealed" to him... from what source he received it. Thank you, dear Noko... for your input.

          With that said, dear Ellderwho... I will wish you peace... and leave you to this thread. I will not revisit it.

          A slave of Christ,


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