Again, may you have peace... and as long as you are willing to continue the discussion, I am willing to make a response, just as my Lord grants me. To wit, you start:
You state "I apologize, but a gain, you err. God chose King Saul." But this is not a case of salvation is it? He needed Saul to do a specific job.
And yet, in both cases, how is such choosing DONE? Is it not by an anointing? In the case of Saul, a fleshly king in earthly Jerusalem, with holy spirit which was evidenced by literal olive oil being poured out on him by the prophet Samuel... and in the case of those who are to become spiritual kings AND priests in "heavenly" Jerusalem, with holy spirit... the oil of exultation itself... holy spirit... by means of the greatest prophet, our Lord?
1 Samuel 10:1; John 1:33
The Bible in many areas shows how God uses individuals for certain tasks.
Yes. And aren't such "kings and priests" to be USED... for a certain task?
You mention Saul as a example of God "un-choosing" a person. But you have to look at why, he chose.
He chose Saul because the people demanded a king. He UNchose Saul... because of the change in Saul's heart. He removed His (God's) spirit... and gave Saul a "bad" spirit. Yes.
As I stated there are many examples of God spirit coming upon a person temporarely so that God can use them for great acts. This happend alot to Israel in Judges 3:8-10 This was not always permenant, sometimes a temporary manifestation of the HolySpirit. The Spirit even came upon non-believers to do unusual tasks.In Numbers 24:2 Gods Spirit used Balaam. (He was a sorcerer). And Pharaoh.You make a WONDERFUL point, that I am not sure even YOU get: that all things done BEFORE the outpouring of holy spirit was with regard to the flesh, which is temporary: the Law Covenant, the miracles, God's use of individuals. However, since the out pouring of holy spirit, such things are for a PERMANENT purpose. However, even that permanence can be changed. Thus, the words at Hebrews 10:26-31:
"For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the Truth, there is no longer an sacrifice for sins left... Any man that has disregarded the law of Moses dies without compassion, upon the testimony of two or three. Of how much greater punishment, do you think, will the man be counted worthy who has trampled upon the Son of God and who has esteemed as of ORDINARY value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt?"So... this says that even after one has been sanctified, cleansed by the blood of Christ, one can CHOOSE to sin. Is that with regard to disobedience to the Law Covenant? No, for that "law" was fulfilled, so that it could be removed and replaced with ANOTHER law, the law of the love. If then, one hates one's brother, one's neighbor, one's enemies... one is not "proving" themselves a son of God, but rather, one is "proving" himself a son of the Devil. John 5:43-48; 1 John 3:9-12 But this is if one CHOOSES to do so. Like Judas. It is not the sin of the flesh... but rather, the sin... of the SPIRIT. From the HEART. It is not sin that says, "Forgive me, I cannot help it, I am weak in this regard." Luke 8:13, 14 Rather, it is sin that says, "I KNOW there is a God, and I KNOW His spirit is good, but I CHOOSE the "bad" spirit." Saul became like this and Judas was one of these: he knew our Lord was God's son... yet, he CHOSE to put in his lot with Satan's agents... and have our Lord put to death. And Paul spoke of others. They are not people who succumb to weakness of the flesh... for we will all succumb to something. Sooner or later. It is our nature. However, it is those who succumb to the weakness of their HEART... those who have NO INTEGRITY... so that if offered enough... they will sell even their soul to the Devil... for the sake of their skin. That is what the Adversary's "temptation" of our Lord was all about - that is why he approached our Lord when he was WEAK... not when he was strong. And if you notice, with the exception of food, none of the "temptations" had to do with the flesh... but with the heart: put God to the test, have all of these kingdoms... rulership and power *I* will give you... if you serve ME. Our Lord was not worried either about his flesh... nor did he give out in his SPIRIT.
In 2Chronicles 36:23 The LORD moved the heart of King Cyrus. The point, Gods Holy Spirit gave the person power to what God needed them to do, but not always did it produce the fruits of the spirit.I beg to differ with you: did not Cyrus' works result in PEACE for Israel? Was it not an evidence of FAITH on Cyrus' part to even go forth with the restoration? Did not the people resound in JOY? Was it not a KIND act of his on their behalf? Was it not GOOD? Did he not do it because he LOVED God... and therefore His people? Does it not evidence a MILDNESS on the part of Cyrus, that he, a ruler, even allowed such a thing, rather than wanting Israel to worship HIM, like other kings? Was he not LONG-SUFFERING with Artexerxes and did he not exercise SELF-CONTROL against those who wished to halt the rebuilding and attempted not only to discourage Judah, but to sway Artexerxes?
As in Sauls case in his early years he was a different person, as the result of the Holy spirits work in him. But as his power grew so did his pride. And in 1Sam 16:14 The spirit left him,EXACTLY! Was it his flesh that changed? Or was it his HEART? David sinned with his FLESH first, and later with his HEART. For which was he disciplined? Nathan was not sent to him when he had relations with Bathsheba... nor when she became pregnant. It was only after David began to contrive against Uzziah and finally had him killed that Nathan was sent. AND... because he saw his own error and CHANGED HIS HEART... God's did not cast him off. True, he "reaped" a bad reward from his other household, but he was allowed another son by Bathsheba... and THAT son was "chosen" to build the temple. And David certainly WAS chosen by holy spirit... to be "God's throne"... to "time indefinite". Saul never committed the types of errors that David did; however, the DIFFERENCE between David and Saul... was the heart.
v.23 then you have the spirit coming back whenever David would play the harp.I am not sure how you are applying this with regard to Saul. But God's spirit "chose" David BEFORE he began playing the harp. And God's spirit was with David even when he WASN'T playing the harp.
Forgive me, for scripture disagrees with your example of God choosing and unchoosing.And I must humby disagree.
Look at the example of Jonah. I wont give you scripture.I am not sure how this example applies, other than although Jonah didn't want to BE chosen, God neverthe less chose him. Do you know why? To teach US the lesson... of mercy... and how we SAY we want to "serve God", but when to comes to doing a difficult assignment, we will also say, "Yes, I'll do ANYTHING... but that..." and try to run from it. However, if it is God's will, we will still be called upon to do the task... for our OWN benefit. What was the benefit to Jonah? To show him his own HEART: Jonah did not know mercy... and had to be taught by the example of his own heart. We, too, our taught this way and the question is when we are, do we HEAR... or do we "harden" our hearts even further?
For you quote our Lord; "If ANYONE (and not just some group named by some group from among earthling man) eats of this bread, he WILL live forever..."Indeed. Jew or Greek. Slave or freeman. Rich or poor. Anyone.
You missed my point, but since you brought up this point, will take it from v60. of John 6 - Here the disciples were grumbling saying " this is a hard teaching who can understand this" ( speaking of eating bread to live for ever). Then Jesus clearifys v63. "the spirit gives life, the flesh counts for nothing, (this would include the heart). wont you agree.No, I must say that I would NOT agree. For it this is the case, everyone whose fleshly heart has been transplanted... will not receive life. For by means of your words, it is the fleshly heart... the organ of tissue... that is meant. However, it is not. It is the heart of a man that only GOD (and thus, Christ) can "see". It is one's thoughts and intentions... one's motives and purposes. It is the "heart" that drives a man. If the flesh that counts for nothing also includes the heart that I speak of... then one could open another's chest, then open that one's heart... and see... "the things that come out of a man." But such things are not seen by eyes of flesh... for it is not the heart of FLESH that I speak of. In the instance YOU gave, the heart (of flesh) IS of no use at all. That's why when it gives out... it can be replaced... and yet, you are still the same "man" inside... you are still "Ellderwho"... and not the individual whose heart you now possess.
Without the Holy Spirit we can not even see a need for a new life. John 14:17 (the world cannot except the spirit of truth).Again, I must disagree. It is the desire to BE "recreated" that one asks for a "new heart". Such "new heart" is "made"... by holy spirit. Such spirit is the "regenerative life force" of God... that... by means of Christ... CLEANSES a man's SPIRIT... renews his HEART... and makes him a "new personality." By means of the FRUITS of the spirit (i.e., love, joy, peace, etc.)... the former things of the heart (i.e., hatred, hypocrisy, hard heartedness, etc.) can be CHANGED. But one must first see the NEED for such change... and ASK for such spirit... so as to RECEIVE it. And not just ask because it is the spirit of God and one wants to "possess" something "special" - rather, ASK... because one WANTS such spirit to become MANIFEST... in them! They want to "put on the Christ", "clothe oneself" with love... with Christ... with God... for God IS love. I bid you, read Psalm 51:10, 11 - for it is most probably the "prayer" that Cornelius prayed... and was heard... and answered. Acts 10:4, 15, 19-44
I gave you an example of what ears that hear and you turned it around;You state: "So, most assuredly, they heard the WORDS our Lord uttered, did they not? But… you are making the same error as many others when you assume that our Lord is speaking of the hearing with the FLESH." You say" you assume"I find this interesting, as you SEEM to be trying to make an argument for the spirit over the flesh, which argument I absolutely agree with. However, as in this case you keep giving me an examples that relate to the FLESH, versus the spirit. For example, you spoke of ears of FLESH that hear... and I gave you ears of SPIRIT. Yet, you still dispute...
You then chop off the point I was trying to make;I TRULY beg your pardon... that was not my intention at all! My sincerest apologies!
I said: " the reason you cannot hear is that you do not belong to God."And I would disagree... and I would agree. I would DISAGREE, if you are speaking with reference to me. I would AGREE that the reason they did not hear is that they do not belong to God. However, that they did not belong to God was EVIDENCED. How? I will quote Paul (?): "For who among men knows the things OF a man, except the SPIRIT of man that is IN him? So, too, no one has come to know the things OF GOD, except the SPIRIT of God. Now, WE... received... NOT the spirit of the WORLD... but the spirit that is FROM GOD, that we might KNOW... the things that have been kindly GIVEN US... BY GOD. THESE things we ALSO SPEAK... NOT with words taught by HUMAN wisdom, but with those taught BY SPIRIT, as we combine SPIRITUAL... with SPIRITUAL. "BUT... a PHYSICAL man does NOT receive the things of the spirit of God, for they are FOOLISHNESS to him; and... he CANNOT GET TO KNOW THEM... because THEY ARE EXAMINED SPIRITUALLY. However, the SPIRITUAL man examines indeed ALL things... but he himself is NOT examined by any MAN. For "WHO has come to know the mind of JAH that he may instruct Him? But... we DO have the mind... of CHRIST." 1 Corinthians 2:11-16 (and sorry, I can't seem to turn off the "red"!)
Why would I make that refrence to scpiture if, as you say" I am making the same mistake as others "?Because they make that same mistake, too. Perhaps you are also among those who think the "scriptures" can't be misinterpreted, mistranslated or mistransliterated, misused, or misapplied? If so, you are in error, for I give you... "religion." It does it all the time.
Then you agree with me: " Absolutely! And how is it “evidenced” that one “belongs” to God? Isn’t one “chosen”…Where you are correct, yes, certainly! However, where you are not, I am sorry, but I cannot.
Forgive me, you seem to want to read pass the points that I give. " Aguest,which REFUSED to hear." Again, its not that the Pharisees "refused" to hear, they could not hear.Ah, yes... now I "see" your point. But you miss mine: they could not hear because they refused to hear. Their hearts... had grown unreceptive... and they did not ask to have a new heart created in them. Had they WANTED to hear, truly, then they would have been given ears. All one needs do is ASK... and it WILL be "opened" to them. These, however, they could not hear because they did not have ears TO hear. It was not "opened" to them because they didn't WANT it to be. They loved themselves and what they had... and to HEAR... would have been a threat to that. They did not have such ears... because they did not WANT them.
The flesh is nothing, including the heart, if you dont have the spirit of truth, first.And I disagree - the spirit of God cannot reside in an unclean 'vessel'. Therefore, as my Lord said, "Cleanse the INSIDE of the cup FIRST." In that way... an "abode" is prepared so that the Spirit of God can come and dwell therein. True, the "cup" does not have to be COMPLETELY cleansed; only a minute spot is needed, just enough for a "seed" to be planted. But once planted, it will grow. God... "will FINISH your training." John 14:23; Romans 8:9, 10
What good then, would a loving, honest, caring heart be, without the spirit of truth?It would be extremely limited... and at risk to returning to its former state. Why? Because it can be "divided", separated from God. However, to say that such do not exist, would be untrue. The very statement that "for the HEARERS of law are not the ones righteous before God, but the DOERS of law will be declared righteous," bears witness to that. The Samaritan man did not adhere to the Law, but the Jews did. He did not worship at the temple and offer up sacrifices, etc., and they did. Yet, it was the Samaritan man who proved himself "more righteous." So, those Pharisees didn't HEAR. But even some of those who HEARD... did not DO. If, then, I chance to meet someone who IS kind, loving, honest, and caring, and yet, they did not know of my God and my Lord... do I constitute them an "enemy"? I would not. Why? Because although such one might be "without law"... their love, honesty, kindness and caring would show ME that they have the law "written on their heart." And such one would be constituted a "sheep"... one who, although not a "brother" of Christ, does good TO Christ by doing good to his "brothers".
Their are plenty of people in the world with good hearts. And these same individuals do not have the LORD as lord of their life. This is fact.I absolutely agree.
You state: We CAN make our hearts RECEPTIVE... to the best of our ability.. Why I ask you, do you still continue to contradict scripture, with words like "we" and" best of our ability" ??Because what I say to you is true. If you ASK for God and Christ to come into your heart, but your heart is not RECEPTIVE to such dwelling... then what? And since we ARE flesh with its blood... we are limited in what WE can do to make this occur, yes? But... we must at least ASK and be RECEPTIVE, yes?
When later in you post you agree we can do nothing on our ownI am not sure you are properly applying what I have written here. It is true that we cannot GIVE ourselves such spirit; but we can most certainly ASK for it... and as a result RECEIVE it. Luke 11:13Thus it is not by our FLESHAguest: it is by our SPIRIT that we prove it.
No, it is by the Holy Spirit that it is revealed.Hmmmm... I would ask you then to re-read Acts 19:1-7. Note, it says there that Paul encountered some disciples who were BELIEVERS. And yet, these had not yet received HOLY SPIRIT. These had faith... and yet had not received holy spirit... And then, as a RESULT of such faith... they received holy spirit.... and thus, MORE faith. Did they DO anything... other than want it and receive it? They were wishing, as well as "receptive"... yes?
Again you state: "be upon YOU… if you so wish it. Indeed, if YOU are thirsting and YOU are hearing and YOU are wishing, then may you, too, hear what the spirit and bride KEEP ON saying:"
Why do you use language like " if you so wish it"?Because, IF your heart is "upright" and you truly ARE wishing for it, then it is within my power to grant it to you. For it has been given me, FREE, and I am to give it, FREE, to anyone who asks for it, out of pure heart. God granted it to Christ; Christ grants it to those who "belong" to him; and "we" are not to keep it to ourselves, but share it, freely, with those who are thirsting, hearing and wishing. To those who are "deserving"... by means of them being sent to us... or we... to them. John 20:23; Acts 9:17; 10:19-23; 19:6
Dearest Aguest, I have to rebuke you with scripture, I have already given you scripture that contradicts your points.And I humbly accept your rebuke, although I must say to you that it is given in error, based on your own "understanding," and not that given you by Christ. For he has not directed you to "rebuke" me, nor authorized you. But, since you are my brother, yet acquainted with the "elementary" things, I will take your rebuke.
These are not my positions they are the Bibles.Unfortunately, dear Ellderwho... the Bible... has no "authority" over me. I listen to the One who speaks from the heavens... to HIS voice... and it is his "authority" only that I recognize. I exhort you, to read John 5:39, 40 and hear... and get the SENSE of it... so that you, too, will know such "authority".
Confidence in the scriptures will allow you to see how humble we really are.Confidence in the scriptures... will put you back under Law, Law that we have been released from by means of the blood of Christ. Confidence in the CHRIST, however... and in the holy spirit which that One pours out... will help YOU see. It will put you in place to receive "eyesalve"... so as to truly see by the Light of God, Christ. What you follow... is the word written on paper in delible ink. The One whom I follow is the Word of God; that One is ALIVE... and exerts power. He is not sitting around "waiting", but is ACTIVE... ruling as king and SUBDUING those who belong to him... by means of LOVE... in the midst of his enemies. You are awaiting his "activity" in your life... at the time that he "returns". He is doing his "works" in MY life, now. For he resides IN me, just as God, through holy spirit, reside in me. He in union with God, God in union with him... and I... in union with them. John 17:21-23; 6:56; 15;1-7 Even your "scriptures"... say it is so. However, I did not "hear" it by means of scriptures, but from my Lord. By means of HIS voice.
We deserve Gods wrath period.I did. At one time. When I walked in the UNPROFITABLENESS of my heart. But now that God and Christ dwell IN me... and I am in union with them... I have no condemnation. So long as I CONTINUE in union with them. For apart from them, I can do nothing at all. I live by means of them... and will continue to live. Romans 8:1; John 15:1-7; John 10:1-3; 27 Your "scriptures"... say it is so. However, I did not "hear" it by means of scriptures, but from my Lord. By means of HIS voice. I only QUOTE "scripture" and verses... for those who NEED them: they need to see it "written"... with their eyes of FLESH... rather than hear it directly from the voice of my Lord... and put FAITH in "the thing heard."
People do not like to hear that.I have no problem with it. I know what I "deserve". However, what I "deserve" has been "blotted out"... by means of God's UNDESERVED kindness: mercy. Rather than exist in fear and trembling, then, I live under that mercy. I KNOW God's love... and that the only way He will remove such mercy is if I WISH Him to, by means of a change in MY heart.
It really comes down to this point " How far into sin did Adam fall? What is the bottom line? Did he fall a little, to where he can help himself up, or did he fall so helplessly into the pit of sin, there was nothing he could do for himself.I absolutely agree that Adam farther than being able to help himself. However, I also know that there is a RANSOM... which has been PAID. And all one needs do is want to BE saved... have faith that they CAN be saved... and DEMONSTRATE that faith... by eating from the Tree of Life AND following the commandments to love God, love our neighbor and love our enemies... and that ransom can be applied.
For, if you agree with the latter, you will see how hopeless we really are no matter how much "spiritual food" is put in front of someone who does not have the "spirit" to eat, they will continue to be DEAD in their state and will die in their sin.But I did not disagree with you here, except that to say the "spirit" to eat must start with THEIR spirit, to make way for GOD's spirit... to "finish" the work.
No matter what you think the condition of the heart is.Again, I direct you to Psalm 51:10, 11 and say to you that indeed it is God's spirit that makes the new heart, but it is one's desire FOR God's spirit... to DO so... that starts the process.
As you state:Amen... and amen. And may you hear the spirit... AND the bride. For it KEEPS saying, even unto you: "Come! Take 'life's water'... free!" YOUR servant, and a slave of Christ, SJMay you, too, say, “Blessed is he that comes in the name of JAH…” and give ALL praise and honor and glory to that One and to the One who sent him forth.