Heaven

by ClassAvenger 55 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Francois

  "Happy are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth."

  Genuine meekness has no relation to fear. It is rather an attitude of man co-operating with God--"Your will be done." It embraces patience and forbearance and is motivated by an unshakable faith in a lawful and friendly universe. It masters all temptations to rebel against the divine leading. Jesus was the ideal meek man of earth, and he inherited a vast universe.

  Think of the problems inherent in a perfected being living - rather being marooned - on this dust mote of a planet in orbit about a totally unremarkable sun itself in orbit about the center of a spiral galaxy just like millions of others in the grand creation. Not very loving to be marooned here, a perfected being on such an unremarkable place. It may impress the GB, but it does not impress me. Life, any kind of life lived any where may impress the GB, but it doesn't impress me.

  Give me the full freedom of life everlasting as a full son of God and turn me lose in the universe of universes. Don't maroon me on this dust speck. Then we've got a promise worthy of the God who gave it.

  francois.
• 

  AGuest

  may you have peace... and may I respond to your understanding? Thank you!

  You "said":

  Miz: My understanding is that the "new earth" (Isa. 65:17;66:22; 2Pet. 3:13; Rev. 21:1) refers to the time after Christ reigns for a thousand years during the millennium. During that, Christ reigns in righteousness over the earth, but very few details are given.

  Please note that there is no "millennial earth." That is a fallacy taught by the WTBTS. There is 1,000 year period where Christ's brother rule with him, but that limited period is THEIR rule: his is "indefinitely lasting." the "new earth" is that which remains once it has been cleansed... by fire. When this occurs (at the END of the 1,000 years and after Satan has been loosed), New Jerusalem has already come down out of heaven. That is how Gog and Magog "come against" it (the holy city). For if you recall, THEY... Gog and Magog, are also on the earth. The problem is that folks try to put the Revelation in chronological order, instead of "hearing" what John says: he saw a plethora of things all in a matter of instances, and so he didn't say, "and after I saw such and so, I saw such and so," but rather, "and I saw... and I saw... and I saw."

  How do we know? Because although we SEE in 3-dimension... what we WRITE... in one-dimensional.

  There certainly is alot of speculation about the millennial earth, but not Bible based.

  Indeed. And the WTBTS is at the forefront of such speculation, and will adapt their teachings to support their speculations... rather than teach what is true.

  2cor.12:2 Pauls talks about being "caught up to the third heaven". Verse 4 he says "he was caught up into paradise" sounds like heaven and paradise are the same place.

  I would ask you to go back and reread what Paul said, for if you did, you would find that HE... was not caught up at all, but rather, he KNEW someone, a man, who was. That man... was the Apostle John, who told what he saw WHEN caught up in the Revelation. At that time, he wrote not only what he was seeing AT THAT TIME, but also he was directed to write what he was ABOUT to see... as well as what he SAW... during the time he was "caught up." John wrote what he saw when he was taken "in spirit."

  Revelation 1:11, 19; 4:2

  Rev 2:7 "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev 22 a picture of heaven is given and the tree of life is mentioned three times, v. 2,14,19 shows that paradise is synonymous with heaven.

  I am directed by my Lord to tell you what that Tree (of Life) is... whether you hear or you refrain. The Tree... is my Lord, the Son of God. It is he that is "the Life." It is he that is "the Root [of Jesse]". It is he that is the "True Vine." And it is he that is "Sprout!" He is the "vine" planted by my Father, the Most Holy One of Israel, a "cultivator"... and is the One from whom we must eat to live. It is his flesh, the "leaves" of the Tree, that are for the curing... of Israel and the nations. For, as he himself said, "UNLESS you eat MY flesh and drink MY blood, you have NO life in yourselves. For my flesh... is TRUE food."

  That is why he referred to himself as the "bread from heaven"... the TRUE manna. The Israelites and those who went with them ate the manner in the wilderness. Yet, they died. However, if you eat from THIS Tree... you will live. Forever. The WTBTS, however, has done it's job well: their very purpose is to STOP all who would "eat" from this "Treet" from doing so, by creating a two-group entity where one group eats and the other does not. They promise the group NOT eating resurrection and a change to live forever. Yet, my Lord's words at John 6:51-53 show that such is an error.

  John 6:48-56

  True, my Father, through Christ, will show mercy to whomever He wishes; some will receive life in the manner of Rahab - by means of their faith as borne out in how they treated Christ's brothers. But for those who claim to BE "christians"... they've been misled. AWAY from this truth.

  1 Corinthians 10:1-5; Numbers 11:16

  Jw's clearly teach that after Armageddon,(living Jws, btw. never paid for sin) they are the ones responsible for turning the ruined earth into a paradise, not just for themsleves but for billions past, to give them a "second chance."

  And they are in error. The "no mourning, outcry, pain," takes place when New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven. It is during the time that Satan is abyssed. Armageddon... takes place... AFTER the 1,000 years have ended, AFTER Satan is loosed and goes to try and mislead Gog (the "goats") and Magog (the wicked spirits reserved for judgment). And the 2nd resurrection takes place AFTER that.

  Revelation 20:1-15 (please pay close attention to verses 6, 7 and 11-15), for the latter is supported by Daniel Chapter 7.

  Hebrews 9:27 "and it is appointed unto men once to die...." If there were a second chance and people failed that test, they would have died twice? hmmm

  They only die... once. But they can be resurrected, not to die again, but to be destroyed... body AND spirit... in Gehenna.

  Matthew 10:28; Revelation 20:11-15

  May you have ears to hear the Spirit when, along with its bride the invitation is extended to YOU to:

  "Come! Take life's "water"... the TRUE drink that is the blood of God and Christ....HOLY SPIRIT... free!" For it is by means of this "water"... as its accompanying "food", the flesh of Christ... that we may live.

  I bid you peace.

  A slave of Christ,

  SJ
• 

  Panda

  This is all very interesting. But no one has ever answered this question reasonably ; Where is heaven? I don't recall the Scriptures ever addressing this point and I think it's important to know where the future will be... don't you?
• 

  mizpah

  Aguest:

  You raise some interesting points. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. One point, though. John received his revelation when in exile on Patmos when he was a very old man....well after the death of Paul. So, John could not have been the "man" that Paul referred to...unless John had an earlier revelation from God and shared it with Paul. The fact is that some Bible scholars think that Paul was using a literary form to describe his own experience.

  Another question I have is the period of the 1000 year reign. The Bible seems silent on any specifics. It implys that there are "nations" existing when Satan is let loose. (Rev. 20) Do these people live and die as experienced now? Are these nations comprised of survivors of Armageddon and their progeny? The difficulty of interpreting Revelation is that it is not necessarily written in a "one deminsional" chronological order...as you aptly pointed out. This makes it difficult to be dogmatic on the events that are described. It is hard to reconcile that the "camp of God's people, the city he loves" is the same as the New Jerusalem that comes down from heaven. On the one hand, the "camp, city" results in the destruction and annihiliation of Satan and his hordes. But descent of New Jerusalem ushers in peace, harmony and life.

  There still remains too many questions to be dogmatic.
• 

  mizpah

  Ellderwho:

  Yes, I think I have come to that conclusion too. But Aguest seems to think that the "camp of God" and New Jerusalem are the one and same. But the events described in the vision/s seem quite different.

  It still raises the question as to who comprise the "nations" that are deceived by Gog of Magog at the end of the 1000 year reign. Like you, I've seen a lot of speculation but no concrete Bible information about this period of time.

  Some have felt that the writer of Hebrews meant death inherited from Adam, not "second death" that brings total annihilation. What do you think?
• 

  ellderwho

  Heaven. Aguest

  "they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years"

  Aguest, I stand corrected, in that I erantly refferred to the earth during the millennium as a "millennial earth"

  Aguest;There is 1,000 year period

  millennium (latin for 1,000)

  Being "caught up to the third heaven" I was using the example Paul is speaking of a certain place (third heaven) and another place in v.4 "paradise" and the relationship of these two places.

  You are correct in that I presented the quoted scriptures as if it were Paul in the third heaven/paradise.

  My point is that there is such a place.

  Rev 22: 1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as cyrstal, flowing from the throne of God and the Lamb down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yeilding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations."

  John is quoting from Ezekiel 47:12 where water flowing from the temple produces trees with healing leaves.Not that they will need healing so much as that the water produces health and strength.

  I am directed by my Lord to tell you what that Tree (of Life) is... whether you hear or you refrain.

  Im not sure what you mean by that.

  Gen 2:9 "tree" was used to expound the fact of where this tree was located not the metaphorical refrences to the "Christ."

  But point taken.

  Heaven/Aguest

  This is only a generic veiw, that I present to your question posed about heaven/paradise sorry for any confusion.

  Ellderwho
• 

  ellderwho

  Miz:

  Adam death; Gen 3:19 'until you return to the ground...."

  spiritual death ; Gen 3:7

  I can agree with death inherited from Adam, as well a spiritual death.

  I believe the spiritual death inherited from Adam shows us how far we fell along with Adam into sin, unable to do anything on our own.

  As far being "annihilated" Im not clear on your use of that word.
• 

  ellderwho

  Aguest states:1. When my Lord returns, he will FIRST gather his chosen ones These include those who belonged to...

  DIED during his invisible presence...

  by the time he returned,

  Aguest, help me understand your theology with reguards to the presence of Christ, on earth.

  Is it as follows 1. born a virgin birth

  2. "invisably" returned at some point

  3. to gather his choosen ones

  4. maybe again if your pre-trib

  ellderwho
• 

  mizpah

  Ellderwho:

  Death as a result of Adam's sin is temporary in the sense that one can be resurrected from the grave. But with "second death" there is no hope of a future life. It means total annihilation as indicated in the term itself "second DEATH."

  Of course, those who believe in Hellfire believe that those thrown into Gehenna are tormented forever and ever. It would seem to contradict the definition as well as the attributes of God. (Love, mercy, kindness, etc.)
• 

  ellderwho

  Mizpah,

  I believe the second death to be eternal separation from God. (spiritual death)

  total annihilation

  That phrase is a little dogmatic for me.

  Their are also many other attributes of God. Most of the time we choose not to think about Gods anger or judgement, which we find condem us.

  Luke 13: 22-31 why did the rich man spoken of wind up in a place of "agony" were the poor man Lazarus wound up in the bosom of father Abraham. And the rich man begs for his brothers not to end up in this place of "torment."

  Was the rich man already judged, the text does not say.

  Even though the rich man received his reward while on earth. But, does not God allow it to rain on the righteous as well as the unrighteous.