How many JWs actually died in Nazi camps
Wikipedia article is a fair and balanced account of how it all happened, including how many died, how many were arrested, and how many signed the document renouncing their faith. In large part Rutherford's provocation of the Nazis clearly fuelled the persecution. More moderate forces on the ground in Germany who thought it best to keep a low profile were over-ruled. Terrible that all those German Witnesses suffered unnecessarily because of Rutherford's megalomania.
There's a powerful statement too that: "The extraordinary animosity between National Socialism and Bible Student teachings was rooted in the similarity in structure of both ideologies, which were based on authoritarianism and totalitarianism and which each believed had a monopoly on the "truth".
If 1 German JW died it was not because of the Nazi regime... it was because of the stupid cult mind control that impose on them neutrality.
They could have avoided dead if they abandoned their stupid stance.
The real culprit here is the cult.
Dietlieb Felderer....jailed in Sweden?
This guy doesn't quite seem like the most reliable source of information.
Have you read the stories of August Dickmann, Horst Schmidt or Leopold Engleitner? Can you explain how it served their own selfish interests not to sign the declaration? They had every reason to believe not signing or not cooperating meant their death, and in Dickmann's case it did.
The facf that some signed the declaration doesn't detract from the fact many didn't.
The fact that many had complex motivations (peer pressure among JWs was another you didn't mention) doesn't detract from the many heroic acts of defiance against the Nazis.
I don't think the intent is to denigrate the clear heroic defiance as you put it by many individuals. The reason....is almost immaterial in my mind. I think the issue is that the perception, and of course the narrative coming from the branch is that as a group JW's were this massive united affront that nobody could quite understand because they could just walk out of there if they signed a piece of paper.
that is certainly what i once believed.
I agree with that totally. Many signed and you don't hear about that in the Watchtower. Motivations were complex and messy and you don't hear about that in the Watchtower either.
But when OC goes off on one, claiming it was little more than self-interest, for men to avoid serving on the front, and that JWs were better fed than other people in Europe. I think that's just bitter talk, to the point of being unhinged. It's patently ridiculous for example to say it was in August Dickmann's interest not to compromise. And considering JWs faced starvation on the death marches it is simply in bad taste. Which pains me to say, because I have enjoyed many of OC's posts.
The comment reminded me of Bill O'Reilly's recent comments that slaves were provided with good accommodation and food.
And...the JWs who had work camp assignments were released on a handshake by Himmler...a salient little item that is always overlooked by the WT. The JWs didn't have to sign a declaration towards the end of the war - I think it was after 1942/3 that HImmler relented to Reinhard Heydrich's widow pleadings
It is not that the stories of people like you mention are being overlooked or put down, SFB, it is just that the whole story isn't being told. Only parts of it have been told - the parts that make the WTS look good
sfb: But when OC goes off on one, claiming it was little more than self-interest, for men to avoid serving on the front, and that JWs were better fed than other people in Europe.
I didn't make that claim...John-Stucke did in the essay she wrote. Check the sources I provided. I am only providing the information that has been published
You didn't read any of the sources of the many ones I linked to (very credible ones, including Garbe's work that is touted by the WT), did you? You just decided that the WT sources are the most accurate and you took off from there.
Some one gets imprisoned aND that makes him not reliable? But whyv was he imprisoned?
Do more research
I have read Garbe's book, all 600 or something pages.
It may be true that some JWs were treated well by some Nazis who regarded them well. Just as Bill O'Reilly may be technically correct that the slaves who built the Whitehouse were well fed. It's still a stupid comment to make.