we have a laid off bethelite with an engineering degree!

by nowwhat? 40 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Magnum

    I agree with breakfast of champions. I have a lot experience with college - five years including time at a junior college, a four-year college, and a major university (long story). Anyway, I took a lot of engineering courses at a top engineering university, and I can tell you that a lot of engineers, including some professors, might be able to do the math and physics, but they don't have well-rounded intelligence and thinking ability.

    I know people with college degrees who literally shouldn't have been allowed to graduate 8th grade. They can't manipulate simple fractions and don't know the difference between a verb and an adverb.

    One summer I took a whole year of organic chemistry in four weeks (two semesters at two weeks each). Since it was so intense, we had two instructors - both with a PhD in org chem. They knew their Ochem, but other than that, they were both lacking in well-rounded, overall intelligence.

    I know seven JWs with engineering degrees (three EE, one ME, one IE, one CE, and one ChemE), and I don't think of any of them as being extremely bright. They're all blind and gullible and lacking in good judgement and critical thinking ability.

  • fulano

    Has that to do with the US education level you think?

  • never a jw
    never a jw

    "I know seven JWs with engineering degrees"

    Where do you live?... I have yet to encounter a JW who is an engineer. Accountants only...now these are definitely professionals who overall can't function without rules and procedures. No course that develop critical thinking skills is included in their curriculum.

    Aren't you a bit supercilious when speaking of your peers and teachers?

  • LongHairGal


    I know it's sickening to read about the gullibility of Witnesses. I guess just because somebody got an education doesn't mean they know what's wrong with the religion. They might believe they are doing something for the true God - instead of just giving freebies to users. It just makes you shake your head.

    Since this religion is against education and criticized people with college and careers - they can go take a flying leap. They'd never benefit from MY education or career!

    There's the expression "fool me once..."

  • scratchme1010

    How Can a guy with a college degree be so blind and stupid?!

    Yet again, equating intelligence to brainwashing, confusing what a person knows with what a person feels.

  • Magnum

    never a jw: "Where do you live?... I have yet to encounter a JW who is an engineer."

    I went to school with four of them; we were all at about the same level at that time in JWdom - newly baptized or soon-to-be baptized. The other three were already in my former area when I moved there - one EE, one CE (civil engineer), and one ChemE (the ChemE went to the same school I and the four others did, but we didn't know him at that time.). I will PM you later and tell you where I live and give you the details. I can't give them in public (yet).

    "Aren't you a bit supercilious when speaking of your peers and teachers?"

    I don't think so and don't mean to be. I think I’m just speaking the truth about a subject that I’m passonate about and have given a lot of thought to. I think that if you really knew me, you'd know that I regularly sing the praises of some smart people that I know of or know personally. I have no problem doing such. In fact, I have been amazed at some of the great thinking and insight I've seen on this site. I have learned greatly here. But I also have no problem stating what I stated in my post above. I think I am qualified to make such judgments for a number of reasons.

    I often hear people who have no experience with higher education naively say things like “Oh, he’s been to college”, as if they’re in awe of him and he’s so brilliant just because he’s “been to college”. That frustrates me. I strongly believe that college does not make a person smart. It can be very beneficial, and I love it and would like to be a perpetual student, but it’s not what some of those who are inexperienced and naïve think it is.

    Take my example. As far as I know, college didn’t make me any smarter. I did learn a lot of things like advanced math and physics that I wasn’t exposed to in high school, but I could have learned those things on my own if I had just had the books (In fact, I did a lot of my learning in college just from reading, not from listening to instructors.). I think the benefit of college was that it exposed to me such things which I didn’t know existed before I went. So it wasn’t that it made me smarter; it more so exposed me to things and made me aware of what all there is that I don’t know.

    A lot of the engineering (and other) students and even some professors I knew might have been good in certain areas, but weren’t necessarily smart in an overall, well-rounded way. They might be able (or have been able at one time) to do Laplace transforms and Fourier analysis, but are not well-rounded in smarts.

    Let me give you an example. One of the JW engineers I mentionied did well in engineering school (I was there with him). He is now an elder. He's pretty good at technical stuff. His wife is the opposite, though. She couldn't figure out what 1/2 of 1/3 is even with a calculator (literally). However, she has far more common sense than he has and is far more level-headed and well-rounded in thinking ability than he is.

    I know them well and often see her shaking her head in disgust at him because of his being so dense in many ways. I've tried to reason with him about some of the problems in JW land. The guy just can't catch on. He literally looks at the ground and scratches his head like some kind of moron. However, I have spoken with her, too; she catches on to what I'm saying and I think is secretly doubting.

    In my previous post, I wrote “I know people with college degrees who literally shouldn't have been allowed to graduate 8th grade.” I strongly stand behind that. Example: my third grade teacher, Mrs. Jolly. I will never forget this. We were meeting in a basement room of an old, historic school building because there weren't any rooms available at ground level.

    It was about 1968. She wrote on the chalkboard "go - went - gone." She then proceeded to tell the class that "go" is present, ""went" is past, and "gone" is future. I can see this clearly in my mind - where I was sitting, etc. I raised my hand and said, "But Mrs. Jolly, how can "gone" be future tense?" Her answer? In an abrupt tone, she said, "I don't know; that's just the way it is." (That is word for word what she said; I'll never forget it.) She was a native English speaker, had graduated from college with a teacher’s certification, and didn’t know the most basic English grammar.

    I also had her in the fourth grade - this time for arithmetic. As in the previous example, I can remember what room I was in and exactly where I was sitting. She "taught" the class that (and this is the exact example) 12 divided by 5 is 2.2. I remember vividly knowing she was wrong. It's actually 2 with a remainder of 2; that's not the same as 2.2. It's 2 2/5, or in decimal form, 2.4. She absolutely should not have been let out of high school, much less college. I know many other examples like this.

    Concerning professors…and this is just my personal experience; I won’t generalize… oddly, I found that a lot of them at the junior college and the smaller state college I attended were far better teachers and had far better overall, well-rounded intelligence than many of those at the big university. My physics professor and math professors at the state college were wonderful teachers and were really smart in a well-rounded way. The general chemistry professor at the junior college had exceptional overall smarts. Something I loved about him was that he gave guest lectures in English classes and marked off for bad grammar on chemistry tests.

    On the other hand, some of the professors I had were just good at their particular disciplines and not smart in an overall way. Consider this example: There was one EE professor who taught circuit analysis and filter theory, among other things, and was the author of the textbook the university used for circuit analysis. He knew EE (evidently), but he was a bumbling idiot and nobody even knew what he was talking about in class. One student said at a large meeting of students and professors, including the head of dept, that they needed to throw his book in the trash and stick him in research (because that's basically all he was good for).

    My main point: One’s having a college degree or having been to college does not necessarily mean he’s smart. It seems to me that most people who are smart are more naturally such. College can educate and can enhance, but it does not really make one smart.

    Sorry to be so long-winded. It's just that this is one subject that I've given a lot of thought to and that moves me to speak out.

  • zeb

    and lateral to these thoughts. How old is the engineer that went back? That is the income whatever it is or might have been should have been establishing himself in a safe (paid for!) home and putting aside for eventual time when he left the workforce. yes?

  • Doubtfully Yours
    Doubtfully Yours

    If his degree is legit, he will find suitable employment soon.

    Do not sweat anybody else's fever.


  • Fisherman

    Never had an "instructor" in college -only professors. Called them doctor so and so. -But they do have assistant professors and suchlike instructors that help out in teaching some courses; community colleges have lots of them; But so do name brand Universities. One of my partners taught a science class in Columbia before getting his Ph.D.-- he was as only an instructor.

  • Magnum

    Doubtfully Yours: "If his degree is legit, he will find suitable employment soon."

    I respectfully disagree. It seems that a lot of people think that an engineering degree is an easy, sure, automatic ticket to a high-paying job. I don't think it is; I believe some other factors are involved.

    Recently I've been reconnecting with two old friends that I went from first grade through some college with. They both think I'm a rocket scientist because, although they both have good common sense, neither was ever very good with the books, and I was far better than they were. They both naively think that an engineering degree is a ticket to an instant high-paying glamour job.

    They both know how I was screwed by JWdom and both have been giving me suggestions and trying to help me find a better job. Recently I was visiting with one of them - sitting in his living room with him and his wife. They both know how much schooling I have and that I'm very close to degrees in chemistry and engineering. They told me to go back and finish the courses I need and that I would then virtually instantly have a high-paying job. That seems to be the way the non-technical think. They are in awe of those who excel at math and science and engineering. It's mysterious and foreign to them.

    However, it's just not like many think it is. I mentioned in previous posts in this thread knowing a JW who has a degree in chemical engineering. His degree is from a well-known university. About ten or fifteen years ago I was talking with him about schooling, jobs, etc. He told me that after college, he pioneered for a year, and then, after that, found it extremely difficult (almost impossible) to find a job because of having a year gap in his resume.

    The JW mentioned in the OP might be able to find an engineering job, but it's not certain that he will. It depends on how he can present his time at Bethel and how potential employers will view it. One thing he has against him is his age. It does matter whether people say so or not. Believe me; I know from very recent experience.

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