Update on study with Elder....

by shotgun 51 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • shotgun
    shotgun

    I took the advice of the forum and informed him I wouldlike to study the bible. He arrived case in hand and pulled out the Draw Close to Jehovah Publication.

    I said I thought we were going to study the bible...He then said well this is a bible publication...I said has not past publications contained errors and changes in teachings while the bible remains true. He said yesssss.......Do you have something inparticular you want to look at in the bible.....I said I thought we could start in Matthew and work our way through. Then he says I really just want to determine where you stand on out core beliefs. He asked me if I had any trouble with our NWT..so I said well not really its like most other translations it has good points but flaws and errors as well. He said errors.......I said the same people who wrote the WT publications which we all acknowledge have required changes and have also had errors wrote the NWT, does it not stand to reason they would have made some mistakes given the huge task of translating the bible. He said I guess so.... I asked him who was the messenger who prepared the way for the Lord..he said John the baptist...then I asked who did he prepare the way for...he said Jesus..I said ok then why does it say he prepared the way for Jehovah in the NWT and showed him the verses. He looked and said that was a minor matter..pretty important to get the correct understanding of the bible isn't it I asked.

    He told me I was knitpicking the scriptures and that if I wanted to jump back and forth between verses I can find negative things to dwell on.

    Then I asked him if individual bible writers put events in order or put them out of sequence so that we could try to fit it together. He said they put things in order.

    I asked what is the sequence in Luke 21...... last days , Great Tribulation, end of Gentile times he said yes thats right. So I said if The Gentile times ended in 1914 why do we say the last days began after 1914 which is clearly different from the sequence given in Luke and Matthew. He then said well sometimes the events of the scriptures are not put down in sequence. I said but the end of the Gentile times mentioned in Luke is what ended the Great tribulation. He said the bible is a very complicated book and and its clear I cannot understand it on my own.

    He then said do you still have a problem with dates like 1914, 1918...etc. I said not really but the organization really seems to be hung up on them. He smiled and said what do you mean ...I said the Isaiah book constantly refers to 1914, 1918, 1919 especially the latter two as the dates when we came out of Babylonian capytivity into truth...I asked him to show me one single change in the teaching of those years or subsequent years which was a new teaching at that time and if so one that we still adhere too. He said it was a gradual cleansing process and being patient is the mark of a true christian..I said really I thought it was true worship practised with mercy and love.

    All in all I shared several scriptures with him and he never touched the bible in 90 minutes. He is going to come next week possibly with the CO. The only good I can see was that when my wife asked me how it went and did he discuss my bible questions, I told her no he didn't want to discuss the bible because he said it is too difficult to understand.

    She went silent............

    I was quite depressed over the study as I have been pretty mixed up in my beliefs...the WTBTS has almost shattered my belief or faith in God, Jesus and the bible. I'm struggeling with it and decided to pray fervently for direction and to open the eyes of the ones I love and also this elder. Didn't happen.......

    Oh well I guess only God can draw ones out of darkness into light and for now I'll keep plodding along on my present course...Thanks to everyone on the forum for your helpful advice and support.

  • christopherceo
    christopherceo

    Even though they have convinced themselves that they are the most reasonable people on earth, the opposite is actually true

  • little witch
    little witch

    Shotgun,

    You don't sound shattered to me, hon!!

    I am so impressed with you. Really. Wow!!!

    Sounds like you made him do some ''independant thinking'' and ask him some profound questions.

    Good for you! I would never be able to be so focused.

  • ellderwho
    ellderwho

    I also am studying with a elder, my moms husband, we started the Draw close broch. about six months ago. were in the forth chapter. I find that it really grows my faith. I hold his(elder) feet to the fire on a lot of issues. He did himself in years ago with the comment "if 607 is wrong you can through it all out the widow". So that really started me in a study of neo-babylonian rules.

    I find he's really lost without a cross reference nwt.

  • blondie
    blondie
    He said I guess so.... I asked him who was the messenger who prepared the way for the Lord..he said John the baptist...then I asked who did he prepare the way for...he said Jesus..I said ok then why does it say he prepared the way for Jehovah in the NWT and showed him the verses. He looked and said that was a minor matter..pretty important to get the correct understanding of the bible isn't it I asked.

    Welcome to the world of the JW elder, shotgun. So he can't find out how you stand on the core beliefs of the Bible WTS without using the WTS publications. Shows what he considers the Word of God. Does he think that the NWT is infallible, that the holy spirit guided these same men not to make any errors. Actually, the NWT has been "updated" many times since 1961.

    So it is a minor matter to know the difference between Jehovah and Jesus?

    if I wanted to jump back and forth between verses

    JWs jump back and forth between verses all the time. Only 1 publication, the Commentary on James, is actually a verse by verse discussion. The others, Revelation Climax, Daniel, and Isaiah 1 and 2 are merely WT application of the verses to themselves between the scripture citations. Everything in the Bible is fulfilled on the WTS.

    He said the bible is a very complicated book and and its clear I cannot understand it on my own.

    *** w76 4/15 227 Is It Possible to Know About God? ***


    So God is not hard to find. He had the Bible written in plain language that is easily understood.

    The Pharisees were the ones that said the common people could not understand God's Word.

    He is going to come next week possibly with the CO.

    Two against one. Not good, shotgun. Insist only the Bible be used to back up each and every assertion. If they don't after about 10 minutes, politely show them the door.

    Pick one topic, use the Bible, don't let them go onto another point unless you feel the first one has been adequately discussed.

    Blondie (who is a member of No PBS (pearls before swine) Club, membership one)

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    I agree with Little Witch that your questions were focused. Well done. If he is coming back with the CO, I would say they are coming not to study, but to disfellowship. Especially when your study partner asked this:

    He then said do you still have a problem with dates like 1914, 1918...etc.

    Keep your chin up my friend. If your wife fell silent, I would say she has doubts herself, but is very, very afraid at the moment. As much as you honestly can, reassure her. For example, "If we truly love each other and love Jehovah, surely He will understand and forgive."

  • scholar
    scholar

    elderwho

    Do not worry about the neo babylonian king list as you can throw such hypothetical reasoning out the window. Tou shoud study the Society's biblical chronology607 with confidence as it based on solid evidence.

    I agree that he should have a cross reference NWT and it is most unfortunate that many of our brothers do appreciate the solidity of aour bible based chronology and prophecy.

    scholar

    BA MA Studies in Religion

  • shamus
    shamus
    he didn't want to discuss the bible because he said it is too difficult to understand.

    What a load of hooey.

    Good for you for not letting that nit-wit bring his "brainwashing" publications into the picture.

  • Gamaliel
    Gamaliel

    scholar,

    Tou shoud study the Society's biblical chronology 607 with confidence as it based on solid evidence.

    I agree that he should have a cross reference NWT and it is most unfortunate that many of our brothers do appreciate the solidity of aour bible based chronology and prophecy.

    You should be ashamed to make such a statement after personally presenting to all onlookers that 607 and 1914 do not stand on anything. You join almost every thread that mentions 1914 or 607 only to prove that you can't find any basis whatsoever. Whenever anyone has put "real evidence" in front of you for long enough, you have always finally ignored it and effectively said you that don't care about evidence, that it's a matter of faith in the FDS.

    Gamaliel

    PS: For anyone who doesn't believe this, just visit the latest floundering failure of flimsy WT scholarship on the 607 issue. It's at:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/54983/1.ashx

    scholars last two post's contain the following lines pulled out of context (but you have to see the context):

    I do not give a hoot about reconciling the secular data or Jonsson's flawed 14 lines of so called evidence.
    ...its teachings are based upon three elements: Bible, Tradition and Magisterium or Governing Body with its Faithful and Discreet Slave. So if it does make doctines or teachings for the faithful then it is doing so under the guidance and soirit direction of the our Lord and Saviour
  • Gamaliel
    Gamaliel

    shotgun,

    Sounds like he got the study instead of you. Sounds like he needs a good Bible Study anyway. Makes you wonder why JWs ever use the expression Bible study in the first place. Most JWs have so little respect for it, even though they're always telling themselves they are the only people following it.

    As far the loss of faith goes, well a lot of us had to go through that, too. It's very painful, but it does not necessarily lead to a loss of hope or love. Who knows? Maybe the faith will come back stronger. I still keep a kind of faith in God, but I think everyone has to prepare to see the Bible as a different kind of book than we were led to expect, if we are truly taking a study of the Bible seriously.

    Gamaliel

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