God and the afterlife. Do you need to believe in both

by moley 37 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • stan livedeath
    stan livedeath

    more importantly.....moley:- i think your using the same avatar as another member.

  • Finkelstein

    It is also an indefensible fact that Perry is expressively ignorant.

    Quoting hearsay from ignorant ancient civilizations doesn't make for a strong argument for an afterlife or heaven for that matter.

  • Perry

    Time fundamental and not emergent?

    Well there are some physicists that are challenging the the assumption that space-time is fundamental. They propose it is fluid and is not fundamental. We will see where is goes. Some say it may one day unify physics.

    All of these views, including my own, require assumptions. Just can't get much thinking done otherwise. It is just as easy to assume God as the ultimate fundamental principle as some assume time to be. Stephen Hawkin sees evidence for space, time and matter to have all come into existence at once, even though he admits he doesn't know what was "before" that. I have an answer for that... "In the beginning GOD."

    Genesis 1, you cited as proof is wrong, There was matter before the Earth, and our planet was not created at the beginning, but 10 billion years later.

    Unless of course space-time is fluid, emergent and can be manipulated. It is interesting that in the bible space is characterized as a fabric that can be stretched or manipilated:

    Isaiah 42:5 “Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out;

    Psalm 104:2 “Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain.”

    Isaiah 48:13 “Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens:

    Isaiah 51:13 “And forgettest the LORD thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens,

    Zechariah 12:1 “The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.”

    The heavens are still expanding, or being stretched out to this very day.

  • waton
    Well there are some physicists that are challenging the the assumption that space-time is fundamental. Perry

    Of course spacetime, the word, was coined by Einstein, and refers to the situation since our Big Beginning, when some energy was converted to matter, hung into the newly expanding space.

    Energy though, can not be destroyed or created. so: if energy is uncreated, it is not emergent, but fundamental too.

    Humans alway prefer to have a narrow view, making them large, thinking that there was no time or energy before us is enhancing our sense of uniqueness, but before our space and time and matter must have been energy, with an infinite aka eternal reach, and of course the time to exist in, to go with it.

    Leaving the claim to a personal worker, creator that works with that, to the theologians and priests, and Guardians Of Doctrine.

    Good texts you cite, I even like the Year Text, because it predicts modern motor - less sailplanes, soaring to 20 kms high, twice as high as passenger jets. (Perlon near the Andes)

    Who needs to worry about an after life with joys like that?

    "-Unless of course space-time is fluid-" Perry:

    Fluid or overlapping time is also defined as a measure of consecutive events, and Genesis 1:1, with Bach playing in the background or not, has the sequencing wrong, off by 300%, setting the tone for the current wt timing disasters.

  • Finkelstein

    Its easy to believe in things , much harder to back up those beliefs with evidence.

  • Xanthippe
    God and the afterlife. Do you need to believe in both

    There are many atheists like myself who believe in an afterlife. I found the first clue in a second-hand bookshop about thirty years ago. Since then I've read many books about near death experiences, people from all walks of life reporting them, many without any religious belief.

    Of course the evidence is anecdotal rather than empirical. Scientists can't try killing people and reviving them! The lack of oxygen to the brain causing hallucinations explanation doesn't stack up. Low oxygen, for example causing altitude sickness, results in confusion and little memory of what happened. NDE experiences are crystal clear and people remember them for decades.

    The ones that report conversations, their hospital surroundings or what relatives were doing miles away while they were being revived are the most interesting of course.

  • Ireneus

    For those who are deep into Mathematics, perceiving a soul having existence independent of body is not a difficult task. Thoughts, recordings (memories), dreams …etc do not originate in the brain which is like a machine made of parts, says the great Mathematics legend Kurt Godel says in his biography, and then he makes this conclusion: “The brain is a computing machine connected with a spirit. Consciousness is connected with one unity. A machine is composed of part. In materialism all elements behave the same. It is mysterious to think of them as spread out and automatically united. For something to be a whole, it has to have an additional object, say, a soul or a mind.” (A Logical Journey, written by Hao Wang, 6.1.19, 21; 9.4.12)

  • Perry

    Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that about your sister. I know that hurts deep. Please let me know if there is anything I can do to help.

    I have tried to not work so much this year. Closed my office down after my long-time assistant died from cancer. Have been working from home for nearly 12 months now. It's about time to start cranking back up. I'm a General Contractor in the restoration industry.

    I spent most of the year re-habbiing a cabin in the woods. (my man-cave) Still needs paint on the outside...but I'm getting close to finishing. Inside is all done.

    So far...

  • Perry


    My post didn't post before I left town. So sorry to hear about your sister passing. I know that must be tough. Please let me know if I can't help in some way. Yes, many people are leaving the Watchtower.

    My long-time assistant / office manager passed away last year. Only 50....cancer. So,I moved office back to house to try and take this year a little easier. I'm a general contractor - been rehabbing a cabin in woods this year. Almost done.


    Still need to clean up and paint

    A skunk was living in one wall and a bee hive was living in another. Took it down to the studs and started over.

  • EverApostate

    God(s) were created by humans. AfterLife is a wishful thinking of Humans.

    When you believe in Afterlife, you are deluding yourself by thinking that humans are a special species in nature and that they deserve an afterlife. That is not the case. Humans have evolved to use their brains in a much complicated way than any other species. That’s it.

    Otherwise nature treats every living thing equally. That is, every living thing suffers and eventually dies and is gone forever.

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