The New World Translation

by MrsQ 41 Replies latest jw friends

  • gambit
    gambit

    setfreefinally -- I have to believe you are correct in your position about scholar...

    In this thread scholar says --

    It is impossible to know who the translators were even though some names are bandied about, this amounts to rumour, gossip and speculation. The credentials of the translatore is unimportant as the scholarship of the translators lies within the printed page.

    but in the thread you refered us back to scholars say --

    I thought I should alert you to the fact that Furuli does not esteem himself as a scholar which implies that somehow his qualifications are not bona fide. In fact, Furuli has posted his academic qualifications and scholarly publications on his website, he is employed as a senior lecturer in Semitic studies at the University of Oslo. He cannot be more qualified to research matters in biblical studies. He did not obtain his degrees from a mail order university as is the case in some states in USA. Johnsson, on the other hand does not possess axademic qualiifications in the fields that he claims to be expert at and his GTR to my knowledge has not been subject to any peer review in the literature; Johnsson's book suffers from a lack of critical analysis as shown by the flawed exegesis in the chapter on the seventy years. Jonsson is simply a amateur scholar not a professional scholar'

    He argues here that credentials are unimportant, but he attacked lack of scholarly creditials when his viewpoint disagreed with that of the author... quite amusing actually.

    gambit

  • Alf3831
    Alf3831
    For 99% of the verses, they could merely pick the translations they liked the best and reword it in the generally cold and consistent "modern" style of the NWT. Only if they came to verses that allowed for a number of different possibilities or a problematic doctrinal issue (mostly Trinity-related), they might resort to the commentaries and dictionaries and other tools they must have had like Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar, Liddell & Scott, etc.

    If one were to read through the Old and New Testament as translated in the NWT. It is rather obvious that the translators were more adept at translating the Greek as opposed to the Hebrew. The New Testament is much more readable than the old. I recall a review of the NWT OT by H.H. Rowley back in the early to mid 50's. He criticized the translators wooden literalness. This showed that the translators were not as grammatically strong in their renderings of certain passages. I do recall Genesis 18 being particularly odd reading, amongst other passages. Anyone who has studied Hebrew and read the NWT, can see that the translators did do a fresh translation, although their command of the language was not very strong. Benjamin Kedar, a Hebrew Scholar in Israel, always enjoyed using the NWT, mostly because of its literal renderings. As such, since the early 70's he used it in translation studies he had conducted and printed in scholarly journals. So I sincerely doubt that all they did was pick and choose from other translations.

    Having done some work for both Bert Schroeder and George Gangas, I know that Schroeder knew very little about NT Greek and, although Gangas knew and spoke modern Greek, he would be of only a little help to translate koine (NT) Greek. Fred Franz' Greek was much more useful for translation purposes (by translation, I mostly mean making use of the commentaries, dictionaries, etc.)

    From those I have interviewed in the past. It seems that George Gangas did have a command of the Koine Greek language, although he often resorted back to modern Greek in his explanations of grammar etc...Bert I was told did have a command of the Greek language upon his graduating from the University of Michigan, however, in later years, he oftened did not use it, and subsequently lost much. He oftened was seen looking up reference works, rather than relying on his own knowledge.

    I recall one time interviewing Edward Dunlap before he passed away. He indicated that Fred Franz was solely responsible for the Kingdom Interlinear Translation in 1969. He had two assistants, whom Dunlap could not recall their names, but the translation for the most part was handled completely by Franz. When asked about his opinion regarding Franz' knowledge of the Greek language, he responded similar to Ray Franz' comment in his book "Crisis of Conscience" in that Freddy's knowledge was sufficient enough to attempt a translation of this kind.

    After interviewing others at Bethel, I have come to know of several who assisted the NWT committee in subsequent revisions. I heard that individuals like Nelson Herle, John Albu, and a few others outside of bethel assisted with the 1984 revision. I was also told of a Bro. Horowitz who was preparing an interlinear of the old testament. It was apparently going to be prepared and submitted for review by the Governing Body. However a few on the GB didnt take to kindly to his work, and subsequently put some pressure on him to stop working on that project. Also, in recent years more information regarding the NWT has been leaked. Which to me shows that Ray Franz was not privy to the entire story. Many don't know about the assistance to the committee provided by Norman Swift and Karl Klein, as well as some "outside" assistance by individuals like Steven T. Byington.

    I am sure much more can be said, and with time the full story will eventually become public knowledge.

    Alf3831

  • Gamaliel
    Gamaliel
    Perhaps you should explain why it is that the brilliant NWT translates malkut as kingship instead of reign in Daniel 1:1 because everybody else who has commented on this point have not got a clue

    That's quite an admission, scholar. I'm pleasantly surprised at your humility. Let's discuss it back on that thread.

    Gamaliel

  • Gamaliel
    Gamaliel

    Alf3831,

    Thanks for your insights. I know that Schroeder had many personal books on NT Greek that he had for many years and his own marks in them showed he had studied it seriously. When he learned of my interest, he asked me to do some research on a few NWT issues, with full access to his library. The first project he had me look into was the "house-to-house" issue, and my impression from his own pronunciation and use of dictionaries was that his own Greek was sometimes slow and unsure. I may be overspeaking, butI don't think he had a command of the full, basic NT vocabulary.

    For a few months at Bethel, I set Greek headline type (just the titles) and created some Greek fonts to match some of the fancy fonts we used for the English magazines. Gangas gave me the translations and I noticed that he often mixed up his accents, and I caught a couple more types of mistakes over the months. I discussed learning koine Greek with Gangas, and it was obvious he could read and understand, but at the time I thought Schroeder was actually more careful (even if a bit slow) with koine research. Dean Songer allowed me to go to Athens for a few days to evaluate their ability to set up some pre-press operations for handling their own magazine printing, and some at the Branch expressed disappointment in Gangas' translations of the Watchtower articles. My own Greek was very amateurish, but I still had a knack for picking out a misspelling or other mistake at a quick glance of a page.

    John Albu had lengthy conversations with my roommate, and impressed him with knowledge that went way beyond Hebrew and Greek (Latin, manuscripts, etc). I've written to John, and tried to buy a book from him that he had listed for sale, but I assume he must now known my situation, he didn't respond. Napolitano seemed to be the best in-house resource for Hebrew and Aramaic and was even reading the Peshitta (Syriac) when we both left Bethel at about the same time. He got along very well with Dunlap, but I don't think he had enough direct knowledge of Greek to be one of those assistants. I'm not sure if Napolitano was even in Writing during the first Interlinear work.

    Anyway, I'd love to hear what else might be known about the production of the NWT. I agree with you completely on the smoothness of the NT/CGS vs. the Hebrew, but so much of that was just that awful "prove to be" stuff. When you got used to it, it gave you the feeling that it was trying hard to be accurate to the literal Hebrew..

    Gamaliel

  • scholar
    scholar

    Alf3831

    I was interested to read your elaborations on those individuals in Bethel who were of assistance in the NWT project and I have no reason to doubt what you say of this. However, as the NWT has been closely identified with Bethel and the Witnesses, we still cannot be sure of the identity of the committee. No body has come forward to date with evidence for their identity, no archival material whether letters, internal memos or written documentation has been subnitted. In short, all that we have is oral testimony concerning what work certain individuals have done or have claimed to have done. The fact of the matter that we cannot know their identity or their scholarship but what is more important that the translation of both the OT and the NT remains the finest work ever produced.

    scholar

    BA MA Studies in Religion

  • Gamaliel
    Gamaliel

    scholar,

    It's true we may have oral testimony, but that doesn't mean Gangas was lying when he told anyone who asked that he was on the committee. Believe me, he was asked a lot. I heard him claim it several times. In fact, if you have any friends who were at Bethel when he was -- and you've named people you knew who were -- just ask them and I'm sure they'll know about Gangas. The thing with Gangas was that, since he spoke Greek, he was constantly getting the question about how close modern Greek was to koine Greek. He always answered that it was about 80% the same. Which often led to the question about whether he was on the committee.

    I gave a lot of tours, and when people asked if I could introduce them to someone on the GB, I could always count on Gangas to be very down-to-earth and friendly and he'd even join us for lunch, a few times. Because of this, I know that a lot of people outside of Bethel also know Gangas to have been on the NWT committee, too.

    Also if my own knowledge counts for anything, Bert Schroeder was definitely on it, too. All the others, no matter how sure I am are, for me, as you say, second hand claims. In fact, I was very surprised to hear of alf's mention Karl Klein, and had never heard of a possible Byington connection.

    Gamaliel

  • scholar
    scholar

    Gamaliel

    Your explanation about Gangas or others being members of the NWT committee does not agree with the facts of the matter. If a person boasts about his membership then that is a good enough reason to dismiss his claim as he probably has delusions of grandeur. The fact of the matter was and is that when the committe gifted the NWT to the society for publication rights it was conditional on the request that the names of the committe were remain anonymous even after their death. I cannot believe that any member of integrity would violate this condition.

    scholar

    BA MA Studies in Religion

  • Gamaliel
    Gamaliel

    scholar,

    Well, maybe that was the original intention, but don't dig a hole for yourself unnecessarily. In Gangas' case, at least, I can't see what difference it would make allowing him to just honestly admit it because the question would naturally have come up and it could have sounded like unnecessary evasiveness for him to say "I really can't answer that."

    More cynically, I'd think that after a few years working at the height of Bethel bureaucracy, I'd bet most GB members could hardly distinguish the difference between truth and deceit anymore. For example, I was once (or twice) asked to lie to other Bethelites who heard about fines that the WTS was receiving for not having all our pollution controls in place for emissions from the factory buildings. I was asked to say: "Well, all factories produce about the same amount of pollution as we do, it's just that we're under closer scrutiny." It might have been at least partially true, of course, but it becomes second nature to tell partial truths when we believe we're "defending such a great cause." I have no doubt that anyone who looks can easily see that you have done that regularly in your 607 posts, too.

    Gamaliel

  • scholar
    scholar

    Gamaliel

    Once again you dodge the issue as you do not know the identity of the committee only relying on gossip, hearsay and speculation. It is similar to your lack of evidence for 586 or was it 587. No, it is 586, no that is wrong it is 587. I will stick to the Bible and 607.

    scholar

    BA MA Studies in Religion

  • Gamaliel
    Gamaliel

    scholar,

    Once again you dodge the issue as you do not know the identity of the committee only relying on gossip, hearsay and speculation.

    I don't get this. I have no issue to dodge here. I'm just saying that if you dared ask around you could find even elders among JWs who would tell you that Gangas was on the NWT Committee. If you would still call those JW elders liars, or tell them you think that Gangas was lying, that's up to you. I personally don't have any reason to care any more if Gangas or Schroeder were lying. It's not my issue -- I was just trying to give Gangas a good excuse. I agree that it is technically gossip, hearsay and speculation -- even when first-hand -- but it is also a matter of trust. Even if a member of the GB or an elder has lied to you before, and may lie to you again -- it doesn't mean they are lying all the time. That's just silly.

    It is similar to your lack of evidence for 586 or was it 587. No, it is 586, no that is wrong it is 587. I will stick to the Bible and 607

    I understand your embarrassment over this issue, and in truth, I actually understand what you are going through. I was there for a while myself. It's the exact same problem that caused Russell and Rutherford to say about 606 BCE, 1799, 1874, 1878 and 1881 that "we could not change them by even one year," and that these were "God's dates, not ours." (actually Rutherford was also including 1925 in that particular claim). It took the WTS over 50 years to admit those dates (just listed) were wrong. Therefore, no one expects most JWs today to see it very easily, either. It would be like "going against God" according to the above-mentioned attitude of the men who promoted them.

    "[L]ack of evidence for 586 or...587" is a very dishonest expression, since you yourself cannot find 607 in the Bible. You are well aware that JWs keep it because they believe there is evidence for 539. It's the EXACT SAME LINES OF EVIDENCE you accept for 539 that also gives 587/6 (instead of 606/607). That is how I knew that you would studiously avoid those five simple questions I put to you twice in the "Furuli's attempt" thread. If you truly believed there was no evidence for 587/6 then you are admitting there is no evidence for 539, either. The ironic part of the expression, "I will stick to the Bible and 607" is that you have repeatedly ignored and/or denied the Bible evidence in the current thread about "Furuli's attempt".

    I understand what you are going through, honestly.

    Gamaliel

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