hmmm, I think I like the way this new Salamander chick thinks! Cutely curmudgeonly, like me . (please don't correct me if you don't think I'm curmudgeonly, lol)
Undercover, *arrgghh* you just had to go there, didn't you? lol
Was music better years ago than today?
by JH 66 Replies latest jw friends
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KGB
Absolutley the 50`s, 60`s, 70`s & 80`s were great and I couldn't give a rats arse for todays music
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SheilaM
As I have tried to teach Thunder this is the normal evolution of music. I prefer the 60', 70's and 80's My parents loved the 30's, 40's and 50's such is life. I myself believe there is plenty of beautiful music today and plenty of one hit wonders just as we had " Leo Sayer" today they will have someone else. I am less thrilled with violent rap and songs and some country. But Three Doors Down" "Creed" etc Rock.
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Ron1968
I think it all depends when you grew up. I love the 70's myself. Hey, the Bee Gees were awesome!!
Ron
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Satanus
Yxl1
I couldn't find the peak in the eighties after all. Possibly the who and led zep were the peak of it all. Though, there would be lots of disagreement about it, and also about which of their songs were the peaks of their careers.
SS
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hillary_step
Abbadon,
A good post.
One big problem is that the fact any moron with the right equipment can produce composition without any musical knowledge or playing ability whatsoever. It used to be that if you did this, it sounded obviously crap. Now technology hides the crapitude unless the person listening knows what to listen for.
Now, that is so true and herein lies the problem. People are described as being musicians who could not differentiate a sustained chord from an umbilical chord. The ‘old farts’, more often than not served an apprenticeship in the studios before they even stuck there pimply faces on a CD, many of them gasp, can read music before they read recording contracts.
I was involved with a band many years ago signed by Decca, I did some lyrical work for them and played a little guitar on their first album. After signing their contract they worked seven days a week for a whole year practicing, writing, practicing even more *before* they even released their first album. I can tell you, that I see first hand that this sort of dedication is not there among many of the younger musicians that I meet, because the accent is on success NOT on art and while this is the case, very little will appear that will sustain the reach of time.
Your comparisons do not strike me as doing anything but proving my point.
For your Joni Mitchell I raise you Tori Amos.
Tori Amos, is she not the girl that cites Joni Mitchell as her greatest influence and actually released a couple of her covers? I will give her due as a musician, but not as an innovator. Joni Mitchell is today drafting songs that will serve as inspirational fodder for the thousand Tori Amos’ to come for a long while - and believe you me, there are thousands of copyists singing out their spleens in their little bedrooms as we speak.
I would not class Led Zepplin as innovators in any way, they followed in footsteps carved by others seldom heard of.
Check out Don Van Vliet, I would like to know for example who can be ‘raised’ above him in his genre, cos all I see are copyists, and poor ones at that. This lyricist/musician has been ahead of the pack for twenty years, and still is. You can hear a little of him in many singing and lyrical styles that appear to be quite unique
Innovators in art, Mahler, Strindberg, Forster, Vaughn Williams, Renoir, Ravel, Dylan, Mitchell, Nyro, Seeger, Carmichael, Charlie Parker, John Surman…you know what I mean. The fact is that whether we are prepared to accept it or not a handful of musicians the past three hundred years have been the musical innovators, millions have adjusted there own work to fit the model. I think the source of the river will always have the purest water.
Of course this is just my opinion as an ‘old fart’, but one who has been around long enough to recognize the half-baked concepts of ‘young farts’…You see, I have the dubious pleasure of having been both a young and an old fart. One day you will be an old fart and frankly, you may find it a rather enjoyable station in life….
Best regards - HS
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freedom96
No question that music has taken a dump.
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Satanus
HS
True, not heard of much. But i'm always ready to sample the river further upstream. Don Van Vliet as in captain beefheart? If there were one or two of his songs that you would promote, which would they be?
SS
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Abaddon
libra:
Wow abandon, talk about trying to intellectualize music! I consider it an art form, really whats the point if you turn it into an intellectual thing and even feel the need to redifine the question...LOL! I listen to music with my emotions and so for me how could it be anything but an expierence? The question makes perfect sense to me, it is truly a matter of personal taste and expierence.
The root of the question 'was music better years ago' is easily lost in the clutter of subjective replies influenced by age and taste. Thus me saying if you want to actually answer the question you have to define what 'better' is; if you don't, it is just an interesting conversation about musical tastes.
H_S
Tori Amos, is she not the girl that cites Joni Mitchell as her greatest influence and actually released a couple of her covers?
Tori has done 'A case of You' and 'River' I think. But the way you phrase that question makes me think perhaps you don't have any CD's of Tori, and I'd really advise you (if that's true) to listen to her; she is more than quite good; Little Earthquakes is the starting point. To dismiss her as an imitator based on radio play and interviews would be unwise.
Any female singer/songwriter who doesn't cite Joni as an influence is very likely to be lying through their teeth, or woefully ignorant, or just BAD. However, just because she was someone who defined a genre doesn't mean she can never be rivaled. Is every woman who sings deeply personal songs by herself on stage with a piano (or guitar) automatically inferior to Joni Mitchel just because Joni was an innovator of that genre? No - and I don't think you'd argue that.
And innovation is something that happens ONCE; creativity can happen after a genre has been 'innovated'.
I love Joni, and think perhaps in absoolute terms she is a superior writer of lyrics to Tori; her early albums especially;
CONVERSATION
He comes for conversation
I comfort him sometimes
Comfort and consultation
He knows that's what he'll find
I bring him grapes and cheeses
He brings me songs to play
He sees me when he pleases
I see him in cafes
And I only say, hello
And turn away before his lady knows
How much I want to see him
She removes him, like a ring
To wash her hands
She only brings him out to show her friends
I want to free him
Secrets and sharing soda
That's how our time began
Love is a story told to a friend
It's second hand
But I'll listen to his questions
I'll give my answers when they're found
He says she keeps him guessing
But I know she keeps him down
She speaks in sorry sentences
Miraculous repentances
I don't believe her
Tomorrow he will come to me
And he'll speak his sorrow endlessly and he'll ask me why
Why can't I leave her?
He comes for conversation
I comfort him sometimes
Comfort and consultation
He knows that's what he'll findTHE PRIEST
The priest sat in the airport bar
He was wearing his father's tie
And his eyes looked into my eyes so far
Whenever the words ran dry
Behind the lash and the circles blue
He looked as only a priest can, thru
And his eyes said me and his eyes said you
And my eyes said, let us try
He said, "You wouldn't like it here
No it's no place you should share
The roof is ripped with hurricanes
And the room is always bare
I need the wind and I seek the cold"
He reached post the wine for my hand to hold
And he saw me young and he saw me old
And he saw me sitting there
Then he took his contradictions out
And he splashed them on my brow
So which words was I then to doubt
When choosing what to vow
Should I choose them all-should I make them mine
The sermons, the hymns and the valentines
And he asked for truth and he asked for time
And he asked for only now
Now the trials are trumpet scored
Oh will we pass the test
Or just as one loves more and more
Will one love less and less
Oh come let's run from this ring we're in
Where the Christians clap and the Germans grin
Saying let them lose, crying let them win
Oh make them both confessA CASE OF YOU
Just before our love got lost you said,
"I am as constant as a northern star."
And I said, "Constantly in the darkness
Where's that at?
If you want me I'll be in the bar."
On the back of a cartoon coaster
In the blue TV screen light
I drew a map of Canada
Oh Canada
With your face sketched on it twice
Oh, you're in my blood like holy wine
You taste so bitter and so sweet
Oh I could drink a case of you, darling
And I would still be on my feet
Oh I would still be on my feet
Oh I am a lonely painter
I live in a box of paints
I'm frightened by the devil
And I'm drawn to those ones that ain't afraid
I remember that time you told me, you said,
"Love is touching souls"
Surely you touched mine
'Cause part of you pours out of me
In these lines from time to time
Oh, you're in my blood like holy wine
You taste so bitter and so sweet
Oh I could drink a case of you, darling
Still, I'd be on my feet
I would still be on my feet
I met a woman
She had a mouth like yours
She knew your life
She knew your devils and your deeds
And she said,
"Go to him, stay with him if you can
But be prepared to bleed"
Oh but you are in my blood
You're my holy wine
You're so bitter, bitter and so sweet
Oh, I could drink a case of you, darling
Still I'd be on my feet
I would still be on my feetTori;
CRUCIFY
Every finger in the room is pointing at me
I wanna spit in their faces
Then I get affraid what that could bring
I got a bowling ball in my stomach
I got a desert in my mouth
Figures that my COURAGE would choose to sell out now.
I've been looking for a savior in these dirty streets
Looking for a savior beneath these dirty sheets
I've been raising up my hands
Drive another nail in
Just what GOD needs
One more victim
Why do we crucify ourselves
Every day I crucify myself
Nothing I do is good enough for you
Crucify myself
Every day I crucify myself
And my HEART is sick of being in chains
Got a kick for a dog beggin' for LOVE
I gotta have my suffering
So that I can have my cross
I know a cat named Easter
He says will you ever learn
You're just an empty cage girl if you kill the brid
I've been looking for a savior in these dirty streets
Looking for a savior beneath these dirty sheets
I've been raising up my hands
Drive another nail in
Got enough GUILT to start
My own religion
Why do we crucify ourselves
Every day I crucify myself
Nothing I do is good enough for you
Crucify myself
Every day I crucify myself
And my HEART is sick of being in chains
Please be
Save me
I CRY
Looking for a savior in these dirty streets
Looking for a savior beneath these dirty sheets
I've been raising up my hands
Drive another nail in
Where are those angels
When you need them
Why do we crucify ourselves
Every day I crucify myself
Nothing I do is good enough for you
Crucify myself
Every day I crucify myself
And my HEART is sick of being in chains
Why do we change (chains?)
Crucify ourselves
Everyday
Never going back again
Crucify myself again
You know
Never going back again to
Crucify myself
EverydayWINTER
Snow can wait
I forgot my mittens
Wipe my nose
Get my new boots on
I get a little warm in my heart
When I think of winter
I put my hand in my father's glove
I run off where the DRIFTS GET DEEPER
Sleeping beauty trips me with a frown
I hear a voice
"You must learn to stand up for yourself
Cause I can't alyways be around"
He says when you gonna make up your mind
When you gonna love you as much as I do
When you gonna make up your mind
Cause things are gonna CHANGE so fast
All the white horses are still in bed
I tell you that I'll always want you near
You say that things change my dear
Boys get discovered as winter MELTS
Flowers competing for the sun
Years go by and I'm here still waiting
Withering where some snowman was
Mirror mirror where's the crystal palace
But I only can see myself
SKATING around the truth who I am
But I know dad the ice is getting thin
When you gonna make up your mind
When you gonna love you as much as I do
When you gonna make up your mind
Cause things are gonna CHANGE so fast
All the white horses are still in bed
I tell you that I'll always want you near
You say that things change my dear
Hair is grey and the fires are burning
So many dreams on the shelf
You say I wanted you to be PROUD of me
I always wanted that myself
When you gonna make up your mind
When you gonna love you as much as I do
When you gonna make up your mind
Cause things are gonna change so fast
All the WHITE HORSES have gone ahead
I tell you that I'll always want you near
You say that things change my dear
Never change
All the white horsesCHINA
China all the way to New York
I can feel the distance getting close
You're right next to me
But I need an airplane
I can feel the DISTANCE as you breathe
Sometimes I think you want me to touch you
How can I when you build a great WALL around you
In your eyes I saw a future together
You just look away in the distance
China decorates our table
Funny how the CRACKS don't seem to show
Pour the wine dear
You say we'll take a holiday
But we never can agree on where to go
Sometimes I think you want me to touch you
How can I when you build a great WALL around you
In your eyes I saw a future together
You just look away in the distance
China all the way to New York
Maybe you got lost in MEXICO
You're right next to me
I think that you can hear me
Funny how the distance learns to grow
Sometimes I think you want me to touch you
How can I when you build a great WALL around you
I can feel the distance
I can feel the distance
I can feel the distance getting closeAnd Tori is FAR more sexual than Joni, and as someone who grew up in a very religious house has LOADS of innovation as regards the demons she exorcises through songs. She also is the only woman I know of who wrote a song about being raped.
Now, if I had said Alanis Morrisette, and you'd replied;
Joni Mitchell is today drafting songs that will serve as inspirational fodder for the thousand Alanis Morisette' to come for a long while - and believe you me, there are thousands of copyists singing out their spleens in their little bedrooms as we speak.
I'd be far more inclined to agree.
I would not class Led Zepplin as innovators in any way, they followed in footsteps carved by others seldom heard of.
You've got a thing about inovation haven't you? But, come on, you know that the lines aren't as clearly drawn as all that, and that the inovators are normally the ones who mix the stuff that went before in an original way, as distinct from people who do something no one has done before. If you want to create a family tree of music, there are very few roots and lots of branches. Example; the Beatles - they didn't really do anything that was utterly original, it's just their creativity and originality in combining musical forms they liked into something new was outstanding.
Standing on the shoulders of giants is the fate of most musicians; funnily enough some of the most despised music is the most innovative (rap and dance), or at least was about a decade or two ago and is now usually as formulaic as corporate rock.
Don Van Vliet (Captain Beefheart for the benefit of those who don;t know his real name) was an innovator, but do realise that just as calculus was invented twice, so too similarity is not always imitation, but someone seeing the same pattern in what went before and coming to the same conclusion.
Where would Dylan be without Woody Guthrie? Where would Mahler be with Bach? Yes, some people have created whole new branches of music, but they have not been without their influences. ANd although the water may be 'purer' if you are too much of a purist you miss out on a lot of good stuff; hell, I'll never see the Doors, so have NO problem with bands that sound lkike the Doors provided the individual songs are good.
And I'm an old far and a new fart at the same time; best of both world; mock the past but do so with knowledge and good taste!
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be wise
Hi Hillary,
...I'm a 'young fart'.
I suppose you couldn't have put it any clearer. I'm planning on getting older and wiser though!