I look at this board in much the same way Prisca does - there is a wide variety of topics, and thus an appeal (hopefully) to a wide variety of people. I think diversity is a main strength of this online community, and I'd prefer to celebrate that diversity.
Discussion, Debate, and just plain Dissing Off
by onacruse 60 Replies latest members adult
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kgfreeperson
Boy, do I wish I could edit! Anyhow, that would be life-view, rather than live-view, wouldn't it?
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minimus
Good thread.... This is a discussion board. On this board we have quite a few interesting posters. We have those that are able to produce research just like that. We have debaters that could convince you of almost anything because of their compelling arguments. We have very intelligent posters that know how to logically express their irrefutable points. We have those that think that they are superior in intelligence and just like to argue. We have emotionally disturbed people here. We have overly sensitive ones here. We have pragmatists and idealists here. We have persons that would be whatever they are, JW or not. We have those that are living in the past and refuse to look forward to the future. We have "newbies" that know not where to go........We have every type of person here. If at all possible we should try to respect each other. We should be able to disagree. We are not under the supervision of the Governing Body or elders here. We have freedom. If we are told that we can't make a statement without backing it up, then I must ask,"Who made anyone here the Boss?" No one here (but Simon) can make us do anything. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, right or wrong. Not everyone is spirited to debate and argue. For those that love it, go for it. For those that like it, do it when you want to. For those that just want to come here to chill, enjoy the scenery. No one ever told ya it was a "spiritual paradise".
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freedom96
I think if we were to act like adults, then there shouldn't be a problem.
We should all be able to make statements, comments, etc without worrying about being slammed by a fellow poster.
If I make a comment, or place an opinion, especially if it is on politics / religion, I am adult enough to realize that my opinion may not be the same as others. I also realize the limited capabilities of some posters to respond respectfully.
I think we all have fun with the stories that we all have being witnesses, and I don't remember seeing big problems there. It is when it comes to heated issues that we may or may not strongly feel about, again, usually in the religion and especially politics area.
I do feel, that to a degree, those who are making more noise than others, and being rude should have to back up their statements, as many times what they are saying makes no sense.
I do believe that there is a place to discuss potentionally heated topics. But mutual respect should be the way to go. For those who insist on name calling, etc, I think all bets are off. They should be shown the door.
There are definately posters here, that should read some books on people skills. But, that is the same everywhere we go, and has nothing to do with this site. The facts are that for every group of rational people, there are going to be few that are not.
Just something we have to deal with. We need to remember what the purpose of this board is, and draw from it what benefits us.
I have always considered this to be a place for fun and learning, and at times a little speech and debate. I can always learn from others, but I will respect their viewpoints much more if they present themselves with dignity.
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AlanF
You're quite right, Craig, that discussion ought to be done according to the "healthy sequence" you set out. More often than not, that's what I see happen on this board, thank goodness.
But there are other aspects of this. Often, JWs or other Christians will come on this board with their superior attitudes -- often displayed like a peacock's tail -- and by the very nature of their comments or questions condemn the majority of posters here. In that case, they deserve whatever they get. This doesn't happen too often.
In the more usual situation the JW or Christian will pose reasonable questions or challenges, and most often the responses are reasonable. However, I often see the challenger get bent out of shape merely by seeing challenging answers and questions returned in kind. In this case, everyone sees JW-style hypocrisy at work, and many will not hesitate to point it out. Again I think the poster deserves what he gets.
Another thing is that every challenger is different. Some JWs come here to make nasty remarks against ex-JWs, and most posters rightly don't tolerate this. Some Christians come here to preach, but most posters don't want to hear more preaching. In these cases it sometimes happens that a hard knock upside the head wakes the challenger up. If not, they just go away, and really -- who cares? At least, they'll have been given something to think about in a way they'll remember.
It's true that some, like you, have the capacity to absorb blunt honesty well, and others don't. So in general it's a very good idea for experienced posters to go easy on newbies. But again, if newbies are of a mind to issue blunt statements of their own, then they should be willing to get back what they give. If not, too bad.
Now, going easy on newbies does not mean not challenging them. It means giving support where it's obvious that it's needed, and challenging them when needed, but in a reasonable, respectful way. But let's also keep in mind that a lot of people are so thin skinned that they view all challenges, no matter how respectful, as dastardly attacks or ridicule or condemnation. Such people need to learn a better way. If they won't, then good riddance.
Some topics are quite hot on this board for the simple reason that the majority of posters have rejected certain JW teachings. It's only to be expected that someone who supports JW-like beliefs will be strongly challenged. For example, the JWs officially teach a form of young-earth creationism. Most posters understand how ridiculous this teaching is, and of course, the more extreme Young-Earth Creationism espoused by various Fundamentalist Christians. To expect that posters who have rejected such nonsense will simply tell a YEC poster, "That's nice, I respect your beliefs" is naive at best. It would be like expecting posters on a discussion board for child abuse victims to mildly go along with someone who advocates, say, "man-boy love".
Some people object to being "force fed" certain ideas. Well of course, no one on a discussion board is being force fed anything. Posters can read or not read posts -- their choice. If they read posts they don't like, and challenge them, then they should expect to be challenged back. This board is not a namby-pamby, everybody-and-everything-is-ok, PC style board. It's one where people with strong opinions come to express them and to be exposed to other strong opinions. That's the very nature of the ex-JW community because of the extreme spiritual (and sometimes other) abuse most ex-JWs have gotten away from. "Only the strong survive", eh?
Some people object to having their beliefs or ideas called "dumb" or whatever. Well some beliefs and ideas are dumb. The poster who at the moment posts as "JCanon" thinks he's the Messiah, and posts amazingly dumb things. Some people believe the earth is flat. Some believe the universe was created 6,000 years ago. I think it's perfectly fine to call a spade a spade in cases like these. Analyzing and commenting on non-JW dumbness is a good thing for most posters, as it helps a lot of observers to be able to learn how to filter out stupid ideas -- something we were expressly taught not to do as JWs.
Another aspect of this discussion is the very nature of public discussion boards. In a one-on-one conversation with someone, most often there's a strong desire to come to an agreement. There is also privacy, which changes the nature of the conversation drastically. But in a public forum, one who is willing to make strong statements must also be willing to view or hear strong opposing statements -- otherwise one is a hypocrite. A public discussion board, therefore, is fundamentally different from a private conversation, and so the rules that normally govern polite personal discussion do not apply. There are different rules for polite discussion, by the very nature of a public forum, and so far on the Internet, these rules are quite a bit less "polite" than those for private conversation. A public discussion forum expressly exists for public discussion of views that are controversial to some. Don't like the heat? Get out of the kitchen.
For Oxnard, I hope you absorb my above comments. While this board certainly has a strong component of support, the support is often not what you seem to think it ought to be. Because of intense exposure to calls for unquestioning, blanket acceptance of the nonsense by JW leaders, many posters demand a full accounting of anything they're asked to examine or believe. This is perfectly healthy. Many find massive support by reading critical analyses, not only of existing JW beliefs, but of posts by people such as yourself. You yourself are challenged because you demand that other posters quietly accept from you the very things they actively reject on the part of the Watchtower. I don't understand why you're having such a hard time seeing this. Also keep in mind that if you want respect and acceptance from other posters, you're going to have to do what most are quite willing to do -- give logical reasons for the ideas they post. When I say "ideas", I'm not referring to the wonderful and necessary emotional support that many posters are so good at giving to others in need.
AlanF
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Simon
The problem of disagreeing with someone is a perenial one.
The mistake I think we sometimes make is attacking the person instead of countering the ideas they put forth and may come out with things like:
- You are dumb
- You have dumb ideas
- How could you be so dumb to believe that
etc ... Instead of
- I don't agree
- I think that idea is dumb
- I think you are mistaken to believe that
The key thing is to show some repect to the other person, even if we vehemently disagree with their ideas and to concentrate on putting our ideas forward and not just attacking their and, even worse, them.
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StinkyPantz
I have a question? After how many posts can stop being nice to the newbies?
Just kidding. Umm, but seriously. I am known around here for my hot headedness. I'm fine with that, because when I argue/debate with someone I do it calmly and without name-calling. Most often (not always) I just ask the person an additional question about something they've just stated. How is this being pushy if they continue to answer the questions?
Ox-
I have noticed something about you in particular and this isn't meant as a diss, but on the thread that you got upset over, you posted over 20 times, even though you said that you didn't want to debate. This is an example of where you should be a big boy and either walk away, or learn from the other's questions/answer them. Also, if someone says your idea(s) was dumb, they probably once believed the same thing, so don't get upset over it.
Still, friends?
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rem
I often wonder why I come accross so harsh in my posts. I don't mean to, but I just seem to get caught up in the moment. Probably because I've debated with many posters who can dish it out and take it.
I think there may be differences in expectation. I expect people to be able to take criticism of their ideas if they are willing to make blunt statements. It doesn't seem to work that way with some posters, though. They make blunt statements, and then when their ideas get criticized they claim that they are being attacked by someone who thinks they are superior. The fact is that they don't realize how superior-sounding their own posts look.
Usually I just try to get people to think. I know I was given some blunt criticism of my ideas when I was a newbie. It didn't make me want to leave, it made me think about my beliefs. Everybody's different, I guess.
I have a hard time understanding why anyone would even post thier views if they had no desire to defend them. We can all learn something with dialogue and research on both sides. I think that some people are just extra stubborn. Instead of admitting they haven't done extensive research and there is a possibility they could be wrong, they turn it into some type of attack because another poster challenged them to think or explain. Then they make it sound like the person who actually did the research and questioning is closed-minded! Amazing.
rem
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Oxnard Hamster
you demand that other posters quietly accept from you the very things they actively reject on the part of the Watchtower.
No, you've misunderstood me. I don't expect anybody to accept anything, other than the fact I have the right to think and feel a certain way. I never intended to force my beliefs on anyone else. I only wanted to share that despite the JWs, I still believe in God. If you don't, then that's your perogative.
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Oxnard Hamster
but why do you keep knocking research?
I'm not knocking research. I'm just not as interested in it as some people here. But then again, I've noticed that faith is a four letter word for some people.