Welcome Winston.
New member
by Winston Smith :>D 58 Replies latest jw friends
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nowisee
welcome winston! (and mrsq)
enjoy your odyssey.
i know i will enjoy reading your posts as i already have!
very best wishes, nowisee
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Winston Smith :>D
Thx again for eveyone’s support!
minimus & lyineyes your stories were very touching.
lyineyes, yours was especially helpful for me as I can actually see the scene that you described when you first found out about the truth of the WTS. Yes, it would likely be the same scene being played out between my wife and I if I were to let her in to my ideas cold, no offense meant though on how you were exposed to the real truth by your hubby. She is very fragile emotionally and has a very low self-esteem as it is.
Add to this that our family doctor has recommended her to seek help for bi-polar, which I brought up to her a year before the doc suggested it. The "TRUTH" is the one thing that she feels that gives her any real identity.
I’m going to try to move ahead with the same method as this X-elder did with his family as described in the article at Randy’s site; "How I helped my Family Leave Jehovah's Witnesses"
http://www.freeminds.org/psych/exithelp.htm
A very methodic, loving, and effective way to proceed if one has the patience. I hope I can muster it.
Thanks again to everyone who has responded here! This board and the info associated with it is a lifesaver!
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refiners fire
Winston. I am most curious, if you have not read Ray Franz books, both of which are a pretty basic source of knowledge re WT "false prophecy" where have you got your information from? I see that you know a bit of their history already having cross referenced the 2 statements about the 1975 blame shift, and you mention the 'erroneous' Finished mystery book. Have read that book? Im curious as to your reference material.
By the way brother, this is by no means an interrogation, it is stictly a matter of personal curiosity as to how you have sourced the material that has convinced you they are a 'false prophet' . Myself, I read much of their material 'long hand', page by page, from hard copy. few seem to do that today, relying on internet posts.
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mustang
Welcome Winston & MrsQ!!!
Winston, your observations on the dates & prophecies indicate attention to the details. If you can stand some more reading and delving, add "Gentile Times Reconsidered" by Carl Olaf Jonnson to your list. I just finished reading it; there are good reasons why WTBTS is way off by itself on the 607 BCE limb!!!
Again, welcome to the forum, both of you
Mustang
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bikerchic
Winston:
Good luck to you and yours on your journey out.
Katie
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mouthy
Hey Winston Welcome aboard .I am the granny on board. Kicked out because I couldnt believe Jesus came invisably- They are STILL saying you dont get DF for that ( a fellow came here yesterday & told me they dont DF for that)THEY told him that but if you read the WT of April 1st 1986 page 31 They tell you they do in Questions for the readers.
Warm welcome -Happy to know your free of mind control...((hugs))
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Winston Smith :>D
Hi refiners fire:
This is a small novel that is quite likely unwarranted to be posted here due to it’s length. But it does reflect how I came to the conclusions that I did without "apostate" info, so I hope that no one finds this inappropriate. If they do please tell me and I will keep these down in the future.
I apologize in advance to anyone for this overly drawn out, steady stream of conscious thought and rumblings.
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I am flattered that you ask these questions of how I can to these conclusions. And no, I do not view it as an interrogation at all. It is refreshing to be able to freely discuss issues like this, and I joyfully take you up on your inquiry of how I came to my conclusions.
My very first time that I got a taste of seeing that the WTS society does not give us the full truth is when I researched the 537 b.c. date RE the fall of Jerusalem to Babylon..
I really like history, and I wish I was better at retaining info so that I wouldn’t always have to re-study past information.
It was when we were studying the Daniel book on Tuesdays. All these dates, and kings, and their kingdoms which I found was verifying the bibles record was exciting. I wanted to take it to the next level. So I went to the library to look up the history of Babylon.
Well in my research I found that Assyria destroyed Babylon in 689 b.c. That was a cool bit of info. I then learned that Assyria was enamored with Babylon and transplanted the Babylon way of life and beliefs as their own. Partly because of their fascination with Babylon is why Babylon grew again after Assyria conquered it. This I found out, was how much of Babylon’s early history survived, according to the info I read from the library. Around 650 b.c., Babylon revolted and broke free from Assyria, and then in 612 b.c., came back to destroy Assyria. So much happened in such a short period of time between two world powers, it was really fascinating.
Anyway, I saw that Babylonian manuscripts taken by Assyria, and/or written by Assyria traced the royal line of Royal Babylonian kings. By these records timelines were set in firm place. Based on these, among other artifacts, the library book proclaimed without hesitation that Jerusalem fell to Babylon in 586 b.c.
586 b.c, what???
I checked out the remaining few books at the library on the subject, and they all said similar things.
"You mean to tell me the WTS believes this solely, no other source holds to the 537 b.c.?"
Now I don’t really have a problem with the 537 date in itself at this time. The problem I have is that the WTS never told me that they are the sole believers of this. If someone brought this up at the door, I would have looked like a complete, uneducated, brainwashed idiot. and I wasn’t [I thought]
After that, everything else I ever saw from the WTS was always taken with a grain of salt.
And I have heard about the whole 1975 debacle from others, but I wanted to see what the WTS says. Some friends would say that people just, "read too much into things. The WTS never actually printed info like that."
Now at first it wasn’t easy to find info on this in the CD Library because the WTS doesn’t really group every single false prediction. So I dug in myself by taking potshots in the dark.
"Humm, if the WTS said stuff with affirmation RE: the date 1975, I bet some publications around that time make some mention of this date if the WTS really said this."
Now keep in mind, I was doing this mainly to disprove the naysayers. I was still hopeful that the WTS never really said such things.
The first place I went to look was a yearbook. It was the 1975 yearbook. And after just taking a shot in the dark, I found something in the 1975 yearbook:
*** yb75 256 United States of America (Part Three) ***
God’s people then received the absorbing bookLife Everlasting—in Freedom of the Sons of God. It did not take long for most of them to note the chronological chart in it that identified 1975 as the "end of 6th 1,000-year day of man’s existence (in early autumn)."
This certainly raised questions. Does this mean that Babylon the Great will go down by 1975?
Will Armageddon be over , with Satan bound, by then? ‘It could’ acknowledged F. W. Franz ,
"Wow, that’s pretty pointed to me"
I thought"I gotta see that book on the CD-ROM"
Not there.
I was amazed. The WTS PURPOSELY omitted a book off of the CD-ROM . There were clearly other books older on the CD, but this newer book was gone, and I was starting to think they did this not without a good reason.
I then really dug around for more references of 1975. I was now very suspicious. and of course I found many other references to 1975. And I thought to myself,
"Damn, if I was around at this time, I would have sold the house and waited for Armageddon to come at 1975."
There were too many references from the WTS for any good JW to pass over.
So then I thought, "Well, I’m sure the WTS humbly apologized for this mistake."
That’s when I found the WT July 15, 1976, saying of their false prediction of 1975,
"If anyone has been disappointed through not following this line of thought, he should now concentrate on adjusting his viewpoint, seeing that it was not the word of God that failed or deceived him and brought disappointment, but that his own understanding was based on wrong premises."And I was hot. I couldn’t gloss over the arrogance of the WTS. That was nothing like a humble, repentant apology.
And then I saw the 3/15/80 WT saying;
"In saying "anyone," The Watchtower included all disappointed ones of Jehovah’’s Witnesses, hence including persons having to do with the publication of the information that contributed to the buildup of hopes centered on that date."
And that was clearly a five year delay in trying to cover your ass. And a poor attempt at that.
Again I thought that if I lived through that time and then got these arrogant "apologies", I probably would have left. I didn’t want to admit that to myself, but I knew that it would have been seriously considered.
And then I thought that it was sad that no one today of my generation [I’m in my 30's] would know of this. But then I recalled the Proclaimers book. That was supposed to be an accurate history book of the WTS. I’m sure it is clearly stated in there.
Well, first off the Proclaimer book is organized as if it was put together by someone with ADD. Nothing is in any logical, or chronological order. Weird I thought, since the yearbooks are able to be compiled in an educational manner while usually maintaining some adherence to time.
Of course I finally found the WTS’ rewrite of history:
"This later led to the idea——sometimes stated as a possibility, sometimes more firmly ——that since the seventh millennium of human history would begin in 1975 ,"
"Wow! What a self-serving load of BS!" Talk about a rewrite of your own history with "Kid Gloves"So here I am with this information about 1975, plus that little tidbit regarding the fall of Jerusalem in 537 b.c., and they are both critical bits of info that are PURPOSELY OMITTED by the WTS.
So now of recent as we go through the Isaiah books, I have serious reservations about everything that is written down. And the book study is mind numbing.
The biggest mind numbing bit is that the F&DS is selected when Jesus Christ arrives in 1914. The WTS is doing a bang-up job I guess and so JC appoints them as the F&DS in 1914, or thereabout. 1914 = 607 when Israel & Spiritual Israel are taken captive. And the dates 1919 = 537 when the aforementioned are both released.
Now I wonder,
"What made the Bible Students so GD special in 1914?"
I thought it was because the WTS says:
1. they proclaimed 1914 as the end of the Gentile times
2. they were preaching
3. they were clean spiritually
4. they stayed free from the blood guilt of war
Now I look at this list and I think, "BS! The Bible Students at that time thought they were going to heaven in 1914, and that Christ came in the late 1800's."
So much for #1
And after some thinking, I remember the call to "Advertise, advertise, advertise the King..."
This according to the WTS revitalized the preaching work. So by way of comparison before 1922, the preaching work was dead. Further research shows that few if any BStudents actually went door to door.
I don’t have the info readily here, but it’s easy to find if you look it up yourself.
Well, there goes #2.
And then after some research I find info here:
pm 344-65 20 A "Third Part" Preserved in a Purged Land *** Chapter 20"a parallel fulfillment of Zechariah 13:1 to the remnant of spiritual Israelites, who have to do with the "heavenly Jerusalem," the "city of the living God." During the first world war of 1914-1918 C.E., the remnant of spiritual Israelites came under Babylonish bondage and proved to be guilty of spiritual shortcomings and uncleanness."
"This included a restudy of the books of Ezekiel and Revelation, an explanation of which had been attempted [but apparently failed?] and published in July of 1917 in the book entitled "The Finished Mystery.""
Well I’ll be damned. The WTS admitting that the Bible Students were unclean when Jesus came for his inspection.
There goes #3
And the most damning evidence is then this IMHO:
pm 344-65 20 A "Third Part" Preserved in a Purged Land *** Chapter 20"During their spiritual bondage in Babylon the Great, the remnant had touched the dead things of the war-mad world"
"The general governing body of the remnant of spiritual Israel, and also the official elders as overseers of the local congregations of these spiritual Israelites needed to be cleansed"
"In line with keeping themselves unspotted from this world, they were brought to the position of maintaining strict Christian neutrality toward the violent conflicts of the nations that heaped up dead corpses."
Now I’m not taking any of this out of context. All of these passages seem to saying that the Bible Students are blood guilty. Now knowing the way the WTS "phrases" things RE: their past, it seems clear to me that there was a high possibility that some young Bible Students went to war and actually pulled the trigger. They were blood guilty, just as the nations. And the WTS thought nothing different of it at that time.
Damn, so much for #4. That was a big one.
To confirm that I’m not jumping to conclusions here, RE: #4, I find this additional tidbit:
*** w64 6/15 368 Keeping Abreast with Revealed Truth *** History shows that Jehovah’s faithful servants have kept abreast with that revealed truth. [This is Orwellian Newspeak by the WTS for new light and core beliefs] In 1939 the new truth of the neutrality issue was clearly revealed. Just what Jehovah’s servants needed!New Truth! Did everyone get that? New truth!
Yes, by the WTS’ own mouth, their doctrine of neutrality didn’t come into effect until 1939, well after WWI.
Then the WTS has the stones to say stuff like this:
*** w79 3/1 19 Insight on the News *** "Since the turn of the century, the Jehovah’s Witnesses have consistently maintained their stand of nonviolent ‘Christian Neutrality’ through two major world wars ...—University of Michigan Press, p. 23.Whatever. Give me a break. Newspeak by the WTS, again.
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False prophets
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And here is the research RE the false prophet bit. Again, they try to have it both ways.
The funny thing is, the reasoning book never mentions this first scripture. It’s far too damning.
BTW, orange text is WTS points of interest to me. the blue text is my commentary.
*** Rbi8 Deuteronomy 18:20-22 *** 20 "‘However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. 21 And in case you should say in your heart: "How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?" 22 when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak . With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him .’*** g93 3/22 pp. 3-4 Why So Many False Alarms? ***There are some who make spectacular predictions of the world’s end to grab attention and a following, but others are sincerely convinced [so we can judge the false prophet vs. a true prophet based on their sincerity, and not based on Deuteronomy 18:20-22 and if it comes true?] that their proclamations are true. They are voicing expectations based on their own interpretation of some scripture text or physical event. They do not claim that their predictions are direct revelations from Jehovah and that in this sense they are prophesying in Jehovah’s name. Hence, in such cases, when their words do not come true, they should not be viewed as false prophets such as those warned against at Deuteronomy 18:20-22. In their human fallibility, they misinterpreted matters.
So the WTS says we can determine the false prophet based not on scripture, but on what the intentions are of the speaker of the message. And of course the WTS is the sole entity that can read hearts and tell us what heart condition someone has when they proclaim a message?
And in the very same magazine, WT says this:
*** g93 3/22 p. 11 Why Such Eager Expectation of the New World? ***Jesus also indicated that this composite sign would be completed during the life of the generation that saw it begin in 1914
Which has now since been "corrected" also. *** rs p. 134 par. 5 False Prophets ***1 Cor. 13:9, 10: "We have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; but when that which is complete arrives [Jesus in kingly power at 1914], that which is partial will be done away with ." [partial prophesies shouldn’t happen after 1914?]
*** re 164 25 Reviving the Two Witnesses *** "‘And I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty days dressed in sackcloth.’ These are symbolized by the two olive trees and the two lampstands and are standing before the Lord of the earth."—Revelation 11:3, 4.
The sackcloth worn by the two witnesses [faithful anointed Christians are said to be prophesying by WT society according to above scripture understanding] appears to indicate their humble endurance in announcing Jehovah’s judgments. They were witnesses proclaiming his day of vengeance that would bring mourning also to the nations...
...starting from the outbreak of the first world war in the latter part of 1914 and continuing to the early part of 1918. (Revelation 1:10) They preached a "sackcloth" message concerning Jehovah’s judgment of Christendom and the world... ...The fact that they were symbolized by two witnesses confirms to us that their message was accurate and well founded.
So, the WTS says above that during the period of 1914 - 1919, they were the two witnesses who "prophesied" a message that was accurate and well founded. And in case the above isn’t enough to convince someone that the WTS believes that they are prophets for Jehovah today [and spoke "truth" from 1914 -1919], then see the info below:*** w78 1/1 19-20 Enduring in Faithfulness *** THE CONTEST OF THE PROPHETS
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11 Who would win out in this contest of the prophets? Was Jeremiah or Hananiah the true prophet of Jehovah?
12 How like Hananiah are those modern-day false prophets who try to ‘tear down’ the work of Jehovah’s Witnesses with evil intent! Some of these may even have walked with God’s people for a time, [apostates are false prophets, as are Christendom? And those that rise from WTS are false prophets, so weren’t they considered true prophets before their "tearing down work"?] but they become disgruntled at not seeing selfish ambitions fulfilled and they return to the very teachings that previously they had vomited out. They preach "through envy and rivalry," certainly not "through goodwill," for they have nothing upbuilding to say. (2 Pet. 2:22; Phil. 1:15) They hold forth expectations contrary to the Jeremiah class with respect to the coming of the "great tribulation."
*** w78 1/1 18 Enduring in Faithfulness *** For close to 60 years now, Jehovah’s Christian witnesses have been proclaiming to the nations outside and inside Christendom that this world is in its "time of the end" since 1914, and that the entire system must shortly perish in "a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time." (Dan. 12:1, 4) Demonic forces are gathering the nations to Har–Magedon. (Rev. 16:13-16) As the modern-day Jeremiah class proclaim these tidings they endure in faithfulness. To their faith they supply endurance[ So Jeremiah & Hananiah were both termed prophets, true & false respectively. Any who oppose JW’s are considered prophets, although false just like Hananiah. And the WTS claims that JW’s are the modern Jeremiah class, but we are not supposed to make the final connection that JW’s are "prophets" proclaiming God’s message as Jeremiah was?].Now how accurate was this "true prophet" of Jehovah during the period of 1914 - 1919 when they were selected as the F&DS and thereafter released from Babylon the Great’s bondage in 1919 because of their "true and accurate information"?
*** pm 344-65 20 A "Third Part" Preserved in a Purged Land *** Chapter 20A "Third Part" Preserved in a Purged Land..."In that day there will come to be a well opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for an abhorrent thing."—Zechariah 13:1.
3 Do we today see ‘sin and an abhorrent thing’ prevailing throughout the earth, even in Christendom? If we do, then it is evident that Christendom has not availed herself of that "well" [as JW’s did?] that was to be opened "in that day." We are in "that day" now, are we not? Here the word "day" does not refer to a twenty-four-hour day. How can we determine whether we are in that favored "day"? This we can do by considering all the circumstances involved.
11 However, there is a parallel fulfillment of Zechariah 13:1 to the remnant of spiritual Israelites, who have to do with the "heavenly Jerusalem," the "city of the living God." During the first world war of 1914-1918 C.E. , the remnant of spiritual Israelites came under Babylonish bondage and proved to be guilty of spiritual shortcomings and uncleanness. In the year 1919 there came a liberation of them from the organization of Babylon the Great and her political, military paramours.
12 This restored anointed remnant of spiritual Israelites needed to be cleansed from all "sin" and any "abhorrent thing" that had attached to them during their bondage under Babylon the Great and her worldly paramours. As something suited to their spiritual needs then, the "well" of purifying water was opened up to them by the merciful Jehovah, in that liberation year of 1919 C.E. At once they began to avail themselves of the cleansing water of that "well." Then, in a spiritual way, was fulfilled the divine promise in Ezekiel 36:24, 25: "And I will take you out of the nations and collect you together out of all the lands and bring you in upon your soil. And I will sprinkle upon you clean water, and you will become clean; from all your impurities and from all your dungy idols I shall cleanse you." During their spiritual bondage in Babylon the Great, the remnant had touched the dead things of the war-mad world [involved actually in war effort fighting?]; and now it was as if Jehovah through Christ were sprinkling the repentant remnant with the "water for cleansing," mixed with the ashes of the slaughtered red cow.—Numbers 19:1-13.
13 This was required in the case of all the repentant, restored members of the remnant of spiritual Israel. There were none too high in importance or responsibility , [the governing body?] resembling the "house of David," nor any too ordinary or commonplace and numerous, resembling the "inhabitants of Jerusalem," to be excused from this cleansing by means of the water from the "well" of Jehovah’s provision. The general governing body of the remnant of spiritual Israel, and also the official elders as overseers of the local congregations of these spiritual Israelites needed to be cleansed just the same as did the dedicated, baptized members of their congregations. (Acts 20:17-28; 14:23; Philippians 1:1; 1 Timothy 3:1-7; 4:14; Titus 1:5-9) There was a community uncleanness among them. In preaching, teaching and daily living they were obliged to be clean in their restored spiritual estate. In line with keeping themselves unspotted from this world, they were brought to the position of maintaining strict Christian neutrality toward the violent conflicts of the nations that heaped up dead corpses . [so they were actually involved in taking up of arms?] —James 1:27; John 15:18, 19; 17:14.
18 How, then, did Jehovah keep their "land" or spiritual estate pure in worship by fulfilling his promise: "Also the prophets and the spirit of uncleanness I shall cause to pass out of the land."? (Zechariah 13:2) It was by causing any wrong understandings of the Bible prophecies that had been entertained before the remnant’s reinstatement in their "land" in 1919 C.E. to be corrected. The "time of the end," the "conclusion of the system of things," that began in 1914 at the end of the Gentile Times was God’s appointed time for the fulfillment of many prophecies. These could not be understood until they were just about to be fulfilled or after they had been fulfilled. So in the light of all that was taking place since 1914 the reinstated remnant looked anew into the prophecies that God had reserved for the "time of the end" for their fulfillment. (Daniel 12:4; Revelation 10:6, 7) This included a restudy of the books of Ezekiel and Revelation, an explanation of which had been attempted [but apparently failed?] and published in July of 1917 in the book entitled "The Finished Mystery."
With the above said, how can this in the Revelation book be true?:
"‘And I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty days dressed in sackcloth.’ These are symbolized by the two olive trees and the two lampstands and are standing before the Lord of the earth."—Revelation 11:3, 4.
The sackcloth worn by the two witnesses [faithful anointed Christians are said to be prophesying by WT society] appears to indicate their humble endurance in announcing Jehovah’s judgments. They were witnesses proclaiming his day of vengeance that would bring mourning also to the nations...
...starting from the outbreak of the first world war in the latter part of 1914 and continuing to the early part of 1918. (Revelation 1:10) They preached a "sackcloth" message concerning Jehovah’s judgment of Christendom and the world... ...The fact that they were symbolized by two witnesses confirms to us that their message was accurate and well founded.
The WTS society can’t have it both ways. Either there were true prophets during the period of 1914 -1919 in the spirit of —Revelation 11:3, 4, of the WTS was sinful and was proclaiming inaccurate information. The WTS actually had to go back and revise "The Finished Mystery." because of the amount of erroneous information contained in that book. A book that was produced at 1917, a time when the "two witnesses" of Rev 11: 3, 4 were apparently proclaiming a message that was "accurate & well founded" -
Winston Smith :>D
Hi mustang,
that looks like a good book, "Gentile Times Reconsidered". I’ll put it on my list.
bikerchic, thx for dropping in and saying hi.
And mouthy, I think I’ll need a granny. It may have to be to replace the one I so dearly love in our congregation. She is wonderful.
And mouthy, It’s funny you mention the "Questions from readers". My self title for that reoccurring article is, "things we were wrong about in the past and we are now telling you the right way to think."
"Does anyone really write in these Q’s?"
, I have always wondered.Some may I suppose, but I always viewed the "Q’s from Peeps" as a way for the WTS to silently sneak their Newspeak "new light" into the accepted belief file.
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Brummie
Good to meet you Winston
Hope to hear more from you.
Brummie