What if the Watchtower Changed .......

by IslandWoman 69 Replies latest jw friends

hillary_step

he who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted. AlanF

and....'That which is crooked, cannot be made straight'....but it can certainly be tamed.
HS
DannyBear

IW,
***By conscience instead of rule. ***
26yrs ago Ray Franz had that same vision. The watchtower actually promoted the concept for awhile. 'Awhile' the operative word.
It did not last. In fact it ushered in an even more tyranical, policy after policy, form of governing. It scared the livin beejesus out of the governing body. Bethel the very seat of 'god's organization' was rampant with free thinker's, actually reading the Bible without the watchtower! Oh lord! The aftermath of that little exercise was blood and guts.
Removing the 'steel girder' of shunning/dfing would simply change the face of jwdom to something unrecognizable.
Believe me I would like to see such a move away from this practice of shunning, but do not hold out much hope based on history, and my own intimate knowledge of how the whole jw system operates.
Danny
DannyBear

HS
***and....'That which is crooked, cannot be made straight'....but it can certainly be tamed.***
Kinda like calling to a "tamed" lion, here kitty, kitty?
IslandWoman

AlanF,
How could the Watchtower prove that it changed these policies? It would have to issue a series of honest, straightforward articles -- not written in the usual doubletongued style -- explaining what was being changed, why it was being changed, and what was wrong with previous teachings.
Agreed.
It would have to reinstate the large majority of those disfellowshipped for "apostasy" and plenty of others besides. It would have to make restitution and a sincere apology to abuse victims it and its agents have further abused.
Agreed.
It would have to remove a number of thoroughly dishonest publications from circulation and explain why it was doing it.
No, this it cannot do.
It would have to apologize and make restitution to all those damaged by the blood doctrine.
Agreed.
It would have to take positive action to reunite families split apart by all of the above abusive teachings and policies. By positive action I mean that it would have to act on the wishes of anyone now shunned by family members and explain the the ones doing the shunning why the Watchtower was wrong to teach them to shun.
Sorry, cannot do. All that can be done is to mandate that all shunning must stop.
It would have to kick out of leadership positions anyone who is now in the "hardliners" camp. It would have to remove from positions of responsibility all officials who set the above abusive policies.
Sorry, cannot be done. Or are you ignorant of the fact that for anything to be accomplished "hardliners" must agree to it?
It would have to remove all abusive elders, including congregation elders, Circuit and District Overseers, and a number of Governing Body members.
That is up to the Society.
Finally, it would have to issue a clear doctrine explaining that neither the Governing Body nor any other Watchtower officials are now or ever were "God's spokesmen".
AlanF, you know perfectly well that what you are asking is not possible, it is not possible because the JWs are a religion and no religion can do what you ask above.
If you prefer to deal in unrealities go right ahead. I am dealing in the here and now and do not care to deal in stupid ego building fantasies.
IW Obligatory smilie added so as not to sound too angry. :(
hillary_step

Danny,
Kinda like calling to a "tamed" lion, here kitty, kitty?

lol...Perhaps, but sometimes I do think that we forget the significance of many of the changes forced on the WTS over the past twenty years. There has been significant movement away from mainstreaming in recent years under Jaracz leadership, a man incapable of compromise, flexibility or lateral thinking. These changes have forced the WTS into a siege mentality that cannot last for long, given the tidal wave of knowledge and education that is engulfing the Western World. What is happening is almost another Renaissance, this one firmly bedded in a discovery of the world about us that is igniting a new view of humanity among millions. The WTS is not flexible enough to withstand this onslaught of knowledge which eats at its very theological foundations, so it must change or die. It will not die but it will change into a much tamer beast. The natural progression of social evolution will force this, 'apostates' will help it along.
This religion was never designed for the modern world, but was designed to thrive in the woodrot of a post WW1 society, when figures like Mussolini strutted like overweight peacocks on the backs of the mob. The JW religion is an anachronism that could only survive intact if it developed Amish like strategies, plainly out of the question when there is so much 'preaching' to accomplish.
To persons like Jaracz, forcing the issue is an action that he would take great pride in, even if it meant the loss of thousands of adherents in order to 'purify' and 'refine' the Organization. He would view himself as some sort of ancient Hebrew General, watching how his men lapped the waters of Organizational loyalty and would feel no pain of dispensing with those that he feels are unfit to worship the WTS, or as he might put it the "Organizations Interests'.
This sort of mentality is forcing many into areas of personal discomfort where their own conscience on matters is concerned. This past year, I personally know of seven elders and one CO who have stepped aside. I believe this is going on around the world. These men are being replaced by those incapable of original thought, men that Jaracz would smile upon. The problem is, in forcing out 'independent thinkers', the WTS is cutting off its own blood supply. Hitler made the same mistake in WWII when he destroyed the very thing that Germany needed to thrive, the Jews with their science, business acumen and broader intellectual values.
This aggressive crystallization within the WTS, that imho is not accidental but designed by the GB cannot continue endlessly. The recent restructuring of its corporations and financial base is evidence that change is afoot, and change thrust on it from outside pressure. I believe that the beast is being tamed as we speak. When the 'generation' understanding was changed regarding CE1914, Jaracz was not happy about it. Eventually he has had to learn to accept it, as the GB will have to learn to accept many other things that forty years ago would have seemed unimaginable to them.
Best regards - HS
DannyBear

Hello HS,
*** To persons like Jaracz, forcing the issue is an action that he would take great pride in, even if it meant the loss of thousands of adherents in order to 'purify' and 'refine' the Organization. He would view himself as some sort of ancient Hebrew General, watching how his men lapped the waters of Organizational loyalty and would feel no pain of dispensing with those that he feels are unfit to worship the WTS, or as he might put it the "Organizations Interests'.***
Struting like a proud peacock Jaracz would do that very thing. What is frightening about the man is the assured fact, that he has and is, grooming other little 'generals' to carry on the tradition.
I truly would like to believe that there are enough stout hearted lion tamer's, working to reform the beast, but have serious doubts about thier effectiveness. Your mention of several elder's, Co's, etc is a sign that 'good hearted' ones, cannot even stomach the fight any more. That is not really a sign of impending reform, more like complete surrender.
I have heard rumors of these so called reformer's for years now. Yet never seen an iota of proof of thier exsistance. If its true, they better get busy real soon, as Alan so well stated, before it is to late.
I suppose when Rutherford took over the reins from Charles T many at that time felt reform was on its way. Whoever succeeds the current almost extinct geriatric board of governor's, you can be assured they have had 20, 30 or more years of serious 'drill sargents' grooming thier every move.
Enjoyed your always well stated comments HS.
Danny
AlanF

Hello Pork Chop,
Thanks for the compliment, but I'm far from complicated. I'm extremely simple.
Hello, HS,
: and....'That which is crooked, cannot be made straight'....but it can certainly be tamed.
True enough. That which is crooked can most assuredly be tamed and humbled -- even if 'that' refuses to admit it is crooked.
Your other post is excellent, as usual.
As for you, IW:
(I'll try to go easy on you; snicker snicker)
As far as your agreements with me go, so far so good.
:: It would have to remove a number of thoroughly dishonest publications from circulation and explain why it was doing it.
: No, this it cannot do.
I know that it 'cannot do' this, but the reasons it 'cannot do' are bullshit. Therefore it ought to do. That is my point.
:: It would have to apologize and make restitution to all those damaged by the blood doctrine.
: Agreed.
Dah'ohm!
:: It would have to take positive action to reunite families split apart by all of the above abusive teachings and policies. By positive action I mean that it would have to act on the wishes of anyone now shunned by family members and explain the the ones doing the shunning why the Watchtower was wrong to teach them to shun.
: Sorry, cannot do. All that can be done is to mandate that all shunning must stop.
Then it will bear the burden of the anger (and the lawsuits) of the many who have been severely injured by their policies, teachings and practices.
If it takes the loss of many huge lawsuits to do this, then so be it.
:: It would have to kick out of leadership positions anyone who is now in the "hardliners" camp. It would have to remove from positions of responsibility all officials who set the above abusive policies.
: Sorry, cannot be done. Or are you ignorant of the fact that for anything to be accomplished "hardliners" must agree to it?
Actually I am acutely aware of it. I know perfectly well what 'ought to be done', but doing it is simply impossible given the current mindset of JW leaders. That is the point of this whole thread. What ought to be done by JW leaders will not be done by them. Therefore their organization will fail out from under them. 'Too bad, too bad, you great city! Your sins have piled up against you!' You know the routine from here.
:: It would have to remove all abusive elders, including congregation elders, Circuit and District Overseers, and a number of Governing Body members.
: That is up to the Society.
See above.
:: Finally, it would have to issue a clear doctrine explaining that neither the Governing Body nor any other Watchtower officials are now or ever were "God's spokesmen".
: AlanF, you know perfectly well that what you are asking is not possible, it is not possible because the JWs are a religion and no religion can do what you ask above.
Nonsense. There are about one million churches here in Fort Collins that believe that they worship God in the purest sense, but they don't go around preaching that they and they alone speak for God. Not many religions besides the JWs claim that God is directing their every step. All that my above comments demand is that JWs admit -- mostly to themselves -- that they are not special, and that in particular they are not special to God. From this, all else will follow. If they cannot manage this, then they will flout reality and they will ultimately go down the drain. What they admit will determine whether they will survive.
: If you prefer to deal in unrealities go right ahead. I am dealing in the here and now and do not care to deal in stupid ego building fantasies.
I am dealing very much in reality. If you had any real contacts with Bethel personnel you would understand. Because you do not understand, I must conclude that your comments are purely your own speculation. If you disagree, then it would be most appropriate for us to discuss details in private. I believe you have my phone number. If not, home is: 970-206-1555. I'm working a hell of a lot of overtime lately, so you can also try my work number if I'm not home in the evening: 970-225-7533.
: IW Obligatory smilie added so as not to sound too angry. :(
Whatever. We're past that.
AlanF
Swan

If the Watchtower changed it's blood doctrine to one where publishers could do what their conscience dictated without fear of reprisals from the brothers, if they also quit using the two witness rule and said all criminal accusations must be reported to the police, if they stopped shunning, if they said all DF and DA'd could associate with their friends and family, if they apologized to Ray Franz and all others who were hurt by their policies; would exJWs respect their dogma and refrain from putting down their religious beliefs to their faces?

Yes, I probably could. There would be a lot of damage to repair, but I would be willing to help in this. These are big concessions, and I respect that.
Tammy
logansrun

Alan and others:
Interesting comments. I just don't see this happening any time soon, if at all. You see, the changes you enumerate are so fundamental to the JW mindset that I believe, if the organization ever enacted them, many JWs would become disillusioned and leave the religion entirely. This would especially be true of the younger generation of JWs who, subconsciously, are dying to get out anyway. I don't see your average young JW sticking around in this organization simply for, well, Christ's sake. I know, from experience as a young dub that even your most thoroughly brainwashed "model youth" worships and adheres to the Society far more than the Bible itself. Take away the "specialness" of the Society and many would simply lose faith in the Bible altogether. Hell, that's what happened to me, I just did it clandestinely.
The only ones that would stick around would be JW lifers who are so used to the religion they would have nothing better to do. Even they would be shocked into disillusionment, though. I think if the Society enacted the monumental changes you list it would have a massive decline in publishers followed by a slow and steady decline in their membership to the point where they would probably have to downsize their corporation considerably (what need for such massive publishing if it's not "necessary" and not many are reading their books?).
Perhaps if the Society started to take on a more humanitarian stance like your typical, "normal" religion it could survive. But, my take is it would go the way of the dinosaur rather quickly.
Bradley
Loris

Nice dream IW. If the shunning, blood and child abuse issues were dropped and went away the JW religion would be more mainstream. Just a little bit off doctrinally speaking from the rest.
That’s all well and good but I don’t see how that can work in practical terms. How do they make all these major changes and still remain intact? The lawsuits alone would bury them. The feeding frenzy that would occur at the slightest admittance of guilt or complicity would finish them financially.
They have a catch 22 situation. Admit error and pay through the nose financially – or stubbornly refuse to change and suffer the defection of the best and brightest and wither from stagnation. Either way I do not see the possibility of survival of the WTS. Just a matter of time.
Loris (waiting for the end (of WTS) in my lifetime)

What if the Watchtower Changed .......

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