Some questions for you posters on a controversial topic

by LoveUniHateExams 16 Replies latest members adult

  • LoveUniHateExams
    LoveUniHateExams

    So, I've been having a discussion on facebook about a controversial topic. There's a page I follow called JOE. It used to post sports stuff but this past year or so it's become politicised. We're talking left-leaning here on virtually every event. When ISIS bride Shamima Begum wanted to come back to the UK, you can guess which side of the argument JOE was on.

    Anyhoo, what this OP is about concerns JOE posting a video of Mhairi Black reading out anti-trans tweets, criticising transphobia and dismissing concerns that some women have of biological males using the ladies' toilets.

    I posted a comment saying that people having different opinions from Mhairi doesn't necessarily mean they're transphobic. I also said I was surprised that Mhairi was so dismissive of some women's concerns about toilet-sharing with biological men.

    I've had a bit of a back and forth with some guy as a result. He has claimed he has data which show that since the introduction of unisex toilets to some areas of the UK, there has been no problems. I asked him to link the data but he refused, and I can't remember why off the top of my head.

    He's also called me a bigot until I post something that convinces him otherwise (I slapped him down here, saying it was intellectually dishonest of him to call me a bigot and then have my try and prove a negative).

    He's also brought up other minorities, claiming I use the same kind of language black people faced in their fight for civil rights (again, I had to ask him to stop bringing other minorities into the discussion).

    He's also said he thinks I have rapist tendencies and that's why I've been talking about these issues. - WTF?!

    All because I feel that women having concerns about trans-women (biological males) using their toilets deserve to have their voice heard and their opinions aired.

    You see, regardless of what his data may or may not show, rapists are opportunists. If some women fear that bad people will take advantage of these circumstances, well, that's not an irrational fear, even if the chances of something bad happening are extremely low, because rapists are opportunistic and dangerous.

    I said that I think solutions to problems can come from any person, from any group in society. He said that solutions should come from the people involved, the stakeholders, he called them. I ran with his logic and identified the stakeholders (1: women who don't want to toilet-share with trans-women, and 2: trans-women who do want to toilet-share). I then said that these two groups need to sit down and talk. He disagreed, saying that everyone effected by this should talk, in other words, women who are ok with toilet-sharing should be part of the discussion. I said that this last group wouldn't need to join in and discuss because there would be nothing to discuss - trans-women want to toilet-share, and women who are ok with that agree - that's not a discussion. So, I stuck to my original suggestion, which is: women who don't want to toilet-share and trans-women who do want this need to have discussions to find solutions to this issue.

    I've had him say that I don't speak for women, which I've agreed with. I've had two women say that they're ok with biological males using the same toilets. I reminded them that they don't speak for women, either!

    So, I have a few questions:

    Can anyone post a link to data about unisex toilets in the UK and crime or any issues?

    Are there unisex toilets in your area, and what do you think of this?

    This is a bit sensitive, but female posters - how do you feel about sharing your public toilets with biological males?

    It's ok whichever way you answer. You're not a transphobe if you're against, and you're not any kind of name if you're for the idea or if you have no worries about it.

    Thank you.

  • neat blue dog
    neat blue dog

    Another day on the internet, another fight in the comments section. C'est la vie.

  • Diogenesister
    Diogenesister

    The thing is, I probably already have been in the loos with a trans girl. Just didn't notice

    Also, would that just be single occupancy ( as in NHS disabled toilet, which, let's face it, everyone heads for!) Or Ally MacBeale-style all together have a gossip-in-the-girls-room type loos?

    Depends on arena.

    By the by, has anyone seen those awful public ( as in open air) male "piss walls" in the city of London? Ugh!!! Now that upsets my female sensibilities way more than trans girls I'm not aware of in the loos.

  • just fine
    just fine
    I travel often for work and a couple weeks ago there was a trans female using the stall next to me at the airport. I didn’t have a problem. When we were both at the sink I smiled and said hello, and she did the same. That was it. We both peed in the general vicinity of each other and neither of us was offended.
  • LoveUniHateExams
    LoveUniHateExams

    would that just be single occupancy ( as in NHS disabled toilet, which, let's face it, everyone heads for!) Or Ally MacBeale-style all together have a gossip-in-the-girls-room type loos? - yes, I've thought about this.

    One toilet with a lockable door on it, marked 'unisex' is fine. I'd have no problems with that. Airplane toilets are exactly that - one toilet and sink with a lockable door that's unisex.

    But, apparently, some universities in the UK have been pioneering unisex communal toilets, i.e. multiple toilets boasting rape-proof cubicles and lockable door, plus communal sinks.

    How would you feel about this ... someone with a five o'clock shadow and fully-functional wedding tackle claims to be a woman, and sits down in the cubicle next to yours, pebble-dashing the toilet after a rough night out on the piss? XD

    You both then wash your hands in sinks that are next to each other.

    You can see what I'm driving at, right?

  • Xanthippe
    Xanthippe

    I've used unisex loos at motorway service stations in the south of France, this was almost twenty years ago.

    There was a unisex loo in a restaurant in Rome about six years ago. There's a unisex loo in the national trust property near me, I often see men in there.

    Perhaps you need to get out/ travel more.

  • LoveUniHateExams
    LoveUniHateExams

    I've used unisex loos at motorway service stations in the south of France, this was almost twenty years ago.

    There was a unisex loo in a restaurant in Rome about six years ago. There's a unisex loo in the national trust property near me, I often see men in there - like I said, if this doesn't bother you, that's fine. But I'd like you and people like you to spare a thought for women who are bothered by these things.

    Y'know, we English speakers have a strange relationship with the word phobia. We kinda assume that it means 'irrational fear'. Well, I don't think it does. It comes from the Greek word phobos, which simply means 'fear'.

    If you're arachnophobic you have a fear of spiders. But is this fear irrational? I would argue no, this fear is actually perfectly rational. Because, no matter what the data show re the chances of being killed by spiders being very low, highly venomous spiders exist. If your ancestors didn't have this fear, you might not even be here now.

    So, if some women have a fear that rapists might exploit certain situations/arrangements, well, these women must not be dismissed as irrational. In fact, their fear is rational, because rapists exist and are opportunistic and dangerous. Do you agree with this?

    Furthermore, I am strongly convinced that women who have these concerns and trans-women who want to toilet-share need to sit down and have a serious, honest, adult discussion, free of name calling. Again, do you agree with this?

    PS - so, France has had unisex loos for twenty years; Italy has had unisex loos for at least 6 years. Clearly, this social experiment is still in its infancy. If I went to any science ethics committee with a proposal for an experiment that sought to find out if unisex loos resulted in higher sexual offences every ethics committee would reject it. I guess we will just see how this social experiment plays out.

  • DesirousOfChange
    DesirousOfChange

    I recall unisex toilets at the Louvre almost 20 years ago when in Paris. A resort we frequent in the Caribbean has unisex toilets in the disco area. Eight or ten stalls with full doors (like a real "water closet") with a separate small room on one side with 6-8 urinals for men. I've never thought anything unusual about it. I thought it was only us Americans that made such a big deal over the "equipment" of the opposite sex.

  • LoveUniHateExams
    LoveUniHateExams

    So, just wondering where we should draw the line here ... should we have unisex prisons with unisex facilities?

  • just fine
    just fine

    What is the difference if it is a male in the stall next to me or a female? As long as he/she minds their business it doesn’t matter to me.

    I do agree a discussion should be had, but I don’t agree I need to take everyone’s fears (rational or not) and adopt them as my own.

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