"Jehovah" In The New Testament.

by LostintheFog1999 71 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • scholar
    scholar

    aqwsed12345

    A shared treasure of Judaism and Christianity, an important element of faith is the name of God; Christians have no particular objection to the name "Jehovah", but they do not insist on it, because it is a theological term.

    --

    There is much in your post that is subject to criticism. I disagree with your comment that the name 'Jehovah' is a theological term. Rather, the form 'Jehovah' simply represents the best-known pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton in English at least on literary grounds originated with William Tyndale in 1530 and earlier by Raymundus Martini in 1270 into Latin. Thus, rather than a 'theological ' term it is properly etymologically based as it is derived from the Hebrew consonants YHWH and according to some scholars pronounced as 'Yehowa'.

    The NWT Committee from the 1950's has provided clear and compelling evidence that the Divine Name should be properly rendered in the NT even though at this stage there remains only circumstantial evidence for its insertion but the very fact that the Tetragram is the most common word in the OT for a Deity and if the NT writers quoted extensively from the OT by means of direct quotations provides a solid basis for inserting the Divine Name into the NT. Thus by so doing the NWT has elevated the once-shrouded Name from obscurity by means of earlier scribes, scholars and translators and publicized or sanctified the Divine Name by its proper restoration throughout the entire Holy Bible to the eternal praise of its Divine Author - Jehovah God.

    scholar JW

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    scholar

    "Raymundus Martscholarini in 1270 into Latin"

    So, for the first time, anyone wrote down this reading exactly 1,200 years after the destruction of the Second Temple. In the intertestamental era, the pronunciation of YHWH was completely pushed out of public use, it could only be pronounced by the Jewish high priest in the Temple during the Yom Kippur. If anyone else, anytime else, had uttered it, they would have been executed. In addition, by the time of Christ, even the high priest only uttered it softly. Consequently, Raymundus Martini's reading cannot be an authentic witness to the original pronunciation of YHWH much earlier. According to the scholarly consensus, these medieval authors did not know that the Masoretes marked the consonants of YHWH with the vowels of Adonai, not to indicate that it should be pronounced that way, but so that the Jewish reader in the synagogue would know that when came here, then should pronounce Adonai or Elohim. That's why in the Masoretic tex we read "YeHoWah" and "YeHoWiH" also. For a Jew, it was clear, but Christians don't know about this Jewish ruling, so Raymundus Martini didn't know that, that's how IEHOVA was born: out of a misunderstaning. However, this is completely wrong. The Watchtower doesn't even try to defend this reading, just assering "we don't know for sure, but Jehovah is established and traditional." Well, we don't know for sure what was that, but we can surely know that it was never "Jehovah".

    "The NWT Committee from the 1950's has provided clear and compelling evidence that the Divine Name should be properly rendered in the NT even though at this stage there remains only circumstantial evidence for its insertion"

    "Clear and compelling" evidence would be an early authentic manuscript that contains this. Everything else is just speculation, hypothesis and most of all conspiracy theory. There is no circumstantial, let alone direct evidence for this. Such "reasonable to assume" and the like is not evidence, but wishful thinking.

    "but the very fact that the Tetragram is the most common word in the OT for a Deity"

    The fact that this was the "most common word for a Deity" in the Old Testament does not prove that it had to be the same in the New Testament. What did Jesus say? "My Father!" Not Jehovah. But because of the two-class salvation invented in 1935 as a "new light" by Rutherford, God cannot be the Father of the rank and file (not "anointed", outer party, Jonadabite) JWs, but only their "friend", so that's why they don't encourage this address, so "Jehovah" remains.

    "and if the NT writers quoted extensively from the OT by means of direct quotations provides a solid basis for inserting the Divine Name into the NT. "

    Unless, of course, if there is no evidence that when the New Testament writer quoted Old Testament in such a way that by actually writing the name YHWH! Furthermore, according to Howard's theory, even if it was written down, it was not spelled out in Greek (e.g. Γιαχβέ), but YHWH in Hebrew letters. Now, that's not what the NWT does.

    "NWT has elevated the once-shrouded Name from obscurity"

    Why do you lie that no one before the Watchtower Society knew that the Tetragrammaton existed at all? In the two-thousand-year history of Christianity, it was never "obsured", even in your publications there are many references to the fact that it is painted in churches, it was also included in some church hymns, and it is also included in the theological books published centuries before the creation of the Watchtower Society. Church Fathers wrote about this, etc. It was not "obsured".

    Of course, is was not "used" along the way like the JWs do since 1931, but where did Jesus ever say "Jehovah" ever according to the Gospels? Nowhere... How does the Lord's Prayer begin? "Our Father...", not "Jehovah". "Hallowed be your name" does not mean the "use" of the "name" "Jehovah" at all, the "name" here refers to God himself, not to the YHWH. Somehow Jesus - while he specifically indicated what principles and teachings he objected to - never scolded the Jews for not saying Jehovah, Jehovah. If it suited Jesus, why should we be offended by it?

    By the way, did you read what I wrote? And what Raymond Franz wrote on the subject?

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    The addition of "Jehovah" into the New Testament has a manuscript basis just as much as this insertion in Romans 13:1: "in their relative positions". Nothing. Here are some other good examples: https://www.bible.ca/Jw-NWT.htm

    As a JW apologist article say: "This is eisegesis, rather than exegesis - reading one's own ideas into the text, instead of letting the Bible speak, allowing it to be precise where it is precise and vague, where it is vague."

    But in fact the interest of the WTS decides in the translation, they just attach something from their own skull, which is not found in the text.

    I have already argued with quite a few of your comrades along these lines, they presented funnier than funnier conspiracy theories, that the alleged New Testament manuscripts containing Jehovah are "kept in their secret cellars in the Vatican, so that the Truth does not come out" and the like. Of course they can exist, just as UFOs, perpetual motion machines or secret masonic world governments can exist. In principle, at least in the skulls of their inventors. It's just that the characteristic of reality is that it comes to light sooner or later. Woe to the one who is forced to live his life relying on such conspiracy theories, snarling at the facts of experience every day as if they ate his breakfast. I understand that you have good reason to assume this, because they chew on their paranoia like a shipwreck on the sole of a six-times-boiled, three-week-old boot, and draw a significant part of their Antheusian vitality from it.

    You call this recent stumbling "evidence?" So what can "probability" mean then? Indeed, I'm more and more rooting for the WTS to prepare that Greek "miracle text", which cannot be based on any manuscript, yet it will be forged in 237 places on the tetragrammaton - if you are is so sure about it. And then you will be able to see for yourself. The existing manuscripts are the only sure basis that entitles you to make any kind of dogmatic statement! You are furiously cutting the rope on which their religious system depends.

    Stafford, for instance, wants to justify the insertion of "Jehovah" into the New Testament Watchtower by suggesting that it was probably not the apostles who began to abbreviate holy names, but the generation that followed them, while the apostles followed the practice of the Old Testament copyists who inserted Hebrew into the Greek text. In this demonstration, he relies on the hypothesis of a Hebrew original Matthew derived from Papias and Jerome as a fact. However, research has already refuted this insofar as it has shown that the Matthew we have is not a translation, but was originally written in Greek. The hypothesis of a Hebrew Matthew might have originated from those early Syriac translations which, as later works, corrected the tangled Hebraisms in Matthew. The author is also mistaken in suggesting that Matthew consistently quoted from the Hebrew text, because there are many places where he follows the Septuagint (e.g., 1:23, 3:3, 4:4, or 15:8-9).

    Then he argues for the insertion of Jehovah in 1 Cor 2:16 ("For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ"), asserting that there are data for the reading of "Lord" instead of Christ, and in this case the name Jehovah would naturally have stood first. The problem with this argument is that an undeniably later textual tradition attests to the "Lord" standing second (Vaticanus etc.) rather than "Christ" (p46, Alef etc.). The latter are much more numerous, so it is more likely that some copyists standardized the usage, rather than that it was originally there and the copyists replaced it with Christ (fearing the strange coincidence) when the Lord allegedly replaced Jehovah in the first place. Because this coincidence was by no means strange if one bears in mind that the authors often applied to Jesus Old Testament verses that spoke of Yahweh. (Such as Hebrews 1:10.)

    Stafford's work doesn't really answer the main question, namely, why doesn't the New World Translation translate verbatim, even though it puffs itself up in the preface with all sorts of self-praise, promising to do just that, and even promises concordance where possible. (Some of its defenders boastfully mention this in relation to the gnosis-epignosis.)

    Your translation is not verbatim, but contains a lot of interpretative insertions and changes in wording. Many of these are also significant theologically. Your defensive writings focus all their energy on these, but are unable to remove the main accusation: namely, that your comrades are trying to force their various interpretations into the genre of translation rather than commentary. Such tactics will be taken very strictly by readers of a translation that does not wish to be verbatim but prides itself in the preface. That is, those who look into the matter; those who take the promises of the preface at face value will draw false conclusions from this usage.

    Therefore, the NWT preface should not have suggested that they will translate every Greek word with the same English word if possible. It seems that in many places they didn't even strive for this. The New World Translation is a theologically influenced, affected translation, which combines some principles of dynamic equivalence with the method of interpretive insertions built on the principle of "it can also be translated this way, you can't refute it". Neither is characteristic of verbatim translations.

    For example, let's look at Romans 4:3. You often seem to take pride in the idea that you have corrected the "error" of "apostate copyists" who allegedly removed the tetragrammaton from the Greek texts. Well, in the Hebrew text, the name Yahweh indeed appears, but Paul does not quote the verse according to this, but according to the Septuagint. This change and reversion now backfires on you strongly, because it turns out that the apostle gave his seal of approval to the translation of the tetragrammaton with the word "God". I assume he did this because he realized that the appearance of the name YHWH in this context, although common in the Hebrew text, is strictly speaking an anachronism (i.e., a mode of expression reflecting the subsequent knowledge and vocabulary of Moses, who wrote down the events), since we know that God had not yet revealed the name YHWH to the patriarchs.

    Therefore, Paul's inspired word, following the Septuagint (and sanctifying it even against the Hebrew text at this point), returned to the contextual reading of the verse, taking into account the above statement, while you rip the word out of his mouth and drop the name Jehovah in its place, which is simply an anachronism in the Hebrew text at the said place. Who do you think you are?

    Daniel already associates the name of God with the word "heaven" and substitutes it twice. Following this, Matthew says "kingdom of heaven" instead of "kingdom of God". Since the Jews started vocalizing their manuscripts, they have been supplying the tetragrammaton with the vowels of the word "Lord" (Adonai), indicating what should be read there. The Septuagint did not leave it in (in some manuscripts) for it to be pronounced: one camp pronounced it, another did not. But even those who pronounced it could not be sure that they were saying it correctly.

    That the apostles, when quoting the Septuagint, did not write Jehovah is clear from the large mass of manuscripts. The p46 (one of the Ryland papyri from around 200 AD; one of the earliest papyri containing longer text) writes Kyrios in Rom 9:29, just like the great codices. ("Unless the Lord of Hosts had left us offspring" etc.) Interestingly, Paul did not want to translate the "sabaoth", which is translated as "hosts", into Greek, from which we can deduce that he had before him or in his memory a Greek Old Testament text in which, out of respect for the name of Yahweh, the tetragrammaton was replaced with Kyrios, but the Sabaoth was just transcribed in Greek letters.

    What can be said about such a work but to quote Revelation 22:18? How much can a denomination claim to really respect and stand on the Scriptures if it forces such shameless mistranslations?

  • Beth Sarim
    Beth Sarim

    Aid to Bible Understanding pages 884 & 885 details how the name Jehovah was contrived be a Catholic monk Raymodus Martini,,,in detail.

  • Beth Sarim
    Beth Sarim

    The letter "J" sound wasn't even developed prior to the 12th century AD

  • scholar
    scholar

    aqwsed12345

    So, for the first time, anyone wrote down this reading exactly 1,200 years after the destruction of the Second Temple. In the intertestamental era, the pronunciation of YHWH was completely pushed out of public use, it could only be pronounced by the Jewish high priest in the Temple during the Yom Kippur. If anyone else, anytime else, had uttered it, they would have been executed. In addition, by the time of Christ, even the high priest only uttered it softly. Consequently, Raymundus Martini's reading cannot be an authentic witness to the original pronunciation of YHWH much earlier. According to the scholarly consensus, these medieval authors did not know that the Masoretes marked the consonants of YHWH with the vowels of Adonai, not to indicate that it should be pronounced that way, but so that the Jewish reader in the synagogue would know that when came here, then should pronounce Adonai or Elohim. That's why in the Masoretic tex we read "YeHoWah" and "YeHoWiH" also. For a Jew, it was clear, but Christians don't know about this Jewish ruling, so Raymundus Martini didn't know that, that's how IEHOVA was born: out of a misunderstaning. However, this is completely wrong. The Watchtower doesn't even try to defend this reading, just assering "we don't know for sure, but Jehovah is established and traditional." Well, we don't know for sure what was that, but we can surely know that it was never "Jehovah".

    -

    Your comments here are nonsense for you do not provide sufficient detail for your argument. The issues concerning the transmission of the pronunciation of the Name are complex. I recommend that you read the chapter entitled 'From Maimonides to Tyndale' in The Name Of God Y.eH.oW.aH Which Is Pronounced As It Is Written I-Eh-oU-Ah -Its Story, Gerard Gertoux,2002, pp.151-163, University Press of America. This chapter contains much information about Raymond Martin and his antecedents.

    --

    "Clear and compelling" evidence would be an early authentic manuscript that contains this. Everything else is just speculation, hypothesis and most of all conspiracy theory. There is no circumstantial, let alone direct evidence for this. Such "reasonable to assume" and the like is not evidence, but wishful thinking.

    --

    I strongly disagree. For clear and compelling evidence is presented by the NWT Committee from the 1950's by means of either an extensive Foreword and Appendices which present their reasons for the insertion of the Name into the NT. It would be most helpful if the autographs were extant but scholars have to work with materials at hand and make scholarly adjustments accordingly based on the evidence before them.

    --

    "Clear and compelling" evidence would be an early authentic manuscript that contains this. Everything else is just speculation, hypothesis and most of all conspiracy theory. There is no circumstantial, let alone direct evidence for this. Such "reasonable to assume" and the like is not evidence, but wishful thinking.

    --

    Again I disagree. The frequency of the NAME in the OT most certainly must be a factor when His Name is used both directly or indirectly, especially in the case of quotations from the OT are used in the NT. The NWT has no place for 'wishful thinking' in the exercise of its scholarly discretion.

    --

    Unless, of course, if there is no evidence that when the New Testament writer quoted Old Testament in such a way that by actually writing the name YHWH! Furthermore, according to Howard's theory, even if it was written down, it was not spelled out in Greek (e.g. Γιαχβέ), but YHWH in Hebrew letters. Now, that's not what the NWT does.

    --

    Nonsense. The fact of a quotation has the NAME then it would be expected that the NT author or copyist would faithfully reproduce that name in the NT quotation and there is sufficient evidence in the absence of the autographs that this was the practice.

    ---

    Why do you lie that no one before the Watchtower Society knew that the Tetragrammaton existed at all? In the two-thousand-year history of Christianity, it was never "obsured", even in your publications there are many references to the fact that it is painted in churches, it was also included in some church hymns, and it is also included in the theological books published centuries before the creation of the Watchtower Society. Church Fathers wrote about this, etc. It was not "obsured".

    --

    The simple fact is that Jewish scribes and Christendom's scholars have over time hidden the Name by means of translations that either do not contain the Name or have reduced its occurrence and have not bothered to even say the NAME as is the case right up to the present.

    --

    y the way, did you read what I wrote? And what Raymond Franz wrote on the subject?

    --

    What you have written is too lengthy, boring and not poorly set out. I have read Franz's nonsense on the Name in the NT and Greg Stafford's rebuttal to Raymond Franz's opinion.

    scholar JW




  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    The fact that it was definitely not "Jehovah" is already known from the fact that there is no /dʒ/ sound in Hebrew. Whether it could have been "Yehovah" is also not represented by any serious researcher or Hebraist, this is as marginal and exotic an opinion as the Flat Earth Society exists. As far as it is at all possible to establish certainty in such a case, it is the Yahweh version.

    The fact that it was definitely not "Jehovah" is already known from the fact that there is no /dʒ/ sound in Hebrew. Whether it could have been "Yehovah" is also not represented by any serious researcher or Hebraist, this is as marginal and exotic an opinion as the Flat Earth Society exists. As far as it is at all possible to establish certainty in such a case, it is the Yahweh version.

    There was no appreciable argument in any edition of the NWT that even remotely reached the concept of "clear and compelling evidence". I would like to draw your attention to the fact that you specifically call ALL New Testament text copyists Bible forgers, and in this regard you bear the burden of proof. To prove this "beyond a reasonable doubt" (to use a courtroom term), do you think this wishful speculation that it is "reasonable to assume" "couldn't be otherwise" would pass in a courtroom?!

    The existence of autographs is not "helpful", but the only acceptable evidence itself, on the basis of which we establish the text. Because if the thousands of copies of the text were falsified in the sense that "Jehovah" was taken out, with this logic, how do you know how many other aspects were falsified? With this, you kick the chair out from under complete Christianity.

    The fact that it was included thousands of times in the Old Testament does not at all follow from the fact that it had to be included in the New Testament as well. That's about as much reasoning as saying, "Since my bathroom has a sink, it follows that my living room also must have a sink." It is not as if the burden of proof is on me in this regard, and I should explain why if it was included in the OT, why not in the NT, but I will help:

    Maybe because the theological environment has changed? Maybe because it was no longer needed? Because Yahweh himself was just a reminder to the Israelites, who were still leaning towards polytheism, to remember that there is only God "Who I am" (thus who truly exists)?

    Otherwise, the Tetragrammaton does not appear in the Ecclesiastes, the Book of Esther, and the Song of Songs. Couldn't it have been there as well, only the "apostate" copyists removed it, and should it be "restored" in the NWT? After all, with your logic, it's impossible that if it's in one book, it can't not be in the other.

    I note that if God had an objection to this, why didn't He send a Jeremiah-like prophet in the intertestamental age to rebuke the Israelites for not saying the name YHWH? Why didn't Jesus concretely criticized this practice by a single word? And the apostles? Or maybe this has no significance for salvation?

    "The fact of a quotation has the NAME then it would be expected that the NT author or copyist would faithfully reproduce that name in the NT quotation"

    So "it would be expected"? By whom? I translate: "Since I cannot imagine that the writers of the New Testament did not approach this question as it should be based on the logic of my denomination, so it had to be this way". "We know that they were "apostates" from the fact that they omitted the name, since if they had not been apostates, they would not have been taken out." This is also known as circular reasoning.

    "and there is sufficient evidence in the absence of the autographs that this was the practice.

    And what would it be? Do you have such a manuscript? Is there an author who specifically reports seeing a New Testament manuscript containing the Tetragrammaton?

    As I see, you failed to answer my suggestion that the basis of the hypothesis is that the Tetragrammaton was included in SOME (probably archaizing) editions of the Septuagint, but how? Writing YHWH in the Greek text with Greek letters and vowels? No, but Hebrew letters, without vowels, right in the middle of the Greek text. Well, what the NWT does is not to put "יהוה‎" in the English text, but to write it in Latin letters, according to English phonetics, as "Jehovah". However, no one had ever done this in a Bible translation before the modern era. Both Howard and Stafford argue that these Old Testament quotations were not written in the New Testament in Greek letters, with Greek phonetics (e.g. Γιαχβέ), but at most in Hebrew letters as "יהוה‎". Come on, by not acting like that, you even went beyond your own - I emphasize again: unproven - hypotheses.

    Before modern times, Jews did not translate the Tanakh into vernacular languages, but used the Hebrew text in their worship. Of course they knew YHWH, they just didn't say it. In the Christian era, this question did not arise, neither positive nor negative, they simply readily adopted the custom of the Jews, which, as I emphasized: no one objected to in the New Testament. The name in which we are baptized is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The name Yahweh has no significance for salvation in the New Testament. Regardless, it was never "obscured".

    And if you call yourself a "scholar", then show an attitude a little closer to the so-called scientific methodology, instead of sweeping away the arguments of the debate partner with the terms "lengthy, boring" and "Franz's nonsense".

  • scholar
    scholar

    aqwsed12345

    The simple fact of the matter is that the NWT Committee has provided sufficient reasons based on compelling evidence that the Divine Name should properly be rendered in the NT. Thus, the Committee has provided a total of nine reasons or lines of evidence for such insertion into the NT(Refer to 'Appendix A5 -The Divine Name in the Christian Greek Scriptures, New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, 2013, pp. 1736-1743.

    Regarding the pronunciation of the Tetragram, 'Jehovah' is the accepted pronunciation in English has a long tradition in Latin and English and is based on etymology and philology notwithstanding that 'Yehowah' is more correct in line with Hebrew but 'Jehovah' as a term has proved to be far more accessible in at least over 120 languages other than English enjoying such wide currency.

    As a scholar, I respect the use of the 'scientific method' which is well utilized by means of the above nine reasons set out by the NWT committee and despite much criticism from others, the position of JW's on this matter is solidly based.

    scholar JW

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    Rhetorical question: How much time does an average person have to spend in a cult to honestly not want to read the writings of the "enemy"?

    None of the reasons they list are "convincing evidence" but speculation. I answered them in the text on the first page. If this were a court hearing, if you presented such "evidence" you would lose your case very quickly.

    "Regarding the pronunciation of the Tetragram, 'Jehovah' is the accepted pronunciation in English has a long tradition"

    So, since when is it an argument for JWs that something is "traditional" and "accepted". In almost everything else, the point is that everything that is "traditional" and "accepted" (see cross, birthday) is bad.

  • scholar
    scholar

    aqwsed

    Rhetorical question: How much time does an average person have to spend in a cult to honestly not want to read the writings of the "enemy"?

    --

    The said scholar has been doing just that for the last 60 years.

    --

    None of the reasons they list are "convincing evidence" but speculation. I answered them in the text on the first page. If this were a court hearing, if you presented such "evidence" you would lose your case very quickly.

    ---

    The nine lines of evidence are quite sufficient and reasonable to assist honest-hearted ones and the scholarly community at large that the Divine Name, 'Jehovah' should be rendered in the NT. Further, in regards to the seventh point the NWT Committee states concerning George Howard's 'theory' -"rather a presentation of the facts of history as to the transmission of Bible manuscripts"(Refer Appendix 1D, NWT with References, 1984, p.1564, par.6.

    --

    So, since when is it an argument for JWs that something is "traditional" and "accepted". In almost everything else, the point is that everything that is "traditional" and "accepted" (see cross, birthday) is bad.

    ---

    You are being churlish. In this case, tradition is self-sufficient or all that is necessary.

    scholar JW


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