What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 258 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Riley
    Riley

    The ambiguous use of the Tetragrammaton when applied to Jesus in the New Testament is reference to the strange being in the Old Testament who appears to be separate yet co-internal with god. The Jehovah said to Jehovah , the word of the lord , the I have seen the glory of god etc etc.

    Please don’t use that “ other “ crap. It makes my skin crawl.

    Feel free to fight about it till the end of time but at least try and understand the New Testament narrative. Once you understand the basic story , you will understand how pointless arguing about this all is.

  • Riley
    Riley

    Also read Romans 10 -14 for anyone who thinks call apon the name of the lord means Jehovah.

    Sorry I can’t really copy and paste on this phone.

    It requires in the Jews not believing in god.

  • Wonderment
    Wonderment
    Riley: "Please don’t use that “ other “ crap. It makes my skin crawl."

    Someone greater than Jesus gave him the name above every [other] name. (Jn 3.16, 14.28, Acts 4.12)

    The "other" in the above sentence is implied by Bible context.

  • Riley
    Riley

    And just like that , you completely missed the point why the term god is used instead of Jehovah . Keep trying.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Riley, are you a trinitarian, or are you saying the Bible has problems? Or is neither the case? I notice you said "The Jehovah said to Jehovah", but no Bible verse says that. Psalms 110: 1 (translated from the Hebrew) says "YHWH (Jehovah) says to my Lord ...". and that corresponding phrase translated from the Greek Septuagint (and from the NT quote of that verse) says "Kryrios (Lord [meaning YHWH/Jehovah]) said to my lord ...". There is nothing in those verses to indicate that both individuals in those verses are named YHWH/Jehovah.

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Here is one from the ASV

    Zec 3:1 And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of Jehovah, and Satan standing at his right hand to be his adversary.

    Zec 3:2 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Jehovah rebuke thee, O Satan; yea, Jehovah that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

    This from CARM

    The heavens are the work of your hands

    “Hear my prayer, O Lord! And let my cry for help come to You. Do not hide Your face from me in the day of my distress; Incline Your ear to me,” (Psalm 102:1-2).

    It goes on to declare important truths about Jehovah:

    “But You, O Lord, abide forever, And Your name to all generations,” (Psalm 102:12).

    “So the nations will fear the name of the Lord And all the kings of the earth Your glory. For the Lord has built up Zion; He has appeared in His glory. He has regarded the prayer of the destitute and has not despised their prayer,” (Psalm 102:15-17).

    And it speaks of Jehovah’s future kingdom reign over all the peoples of the Earth:

    “This will be written for the generation to come, that a people yet to be created may praise the Lord. For He looked down from His holy height; From heaven the Lord gazed upon the earth, to hear the groaning of the prisoner, to set free those who were doomed to death, that men may tell of the name of the Lord in Zion and His praise in Jerusalem, when the peoples are gathered together, and the kingdoms, to serve the Lord,” (Psalm 102:18-22).

    Throughout this chapter, the word here translated “Lord” is the name “YHWH” or “Jehovah.” The Psalm closes by declaring of Him:

    “Of old, You founded the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Even they will perish, but You endure; And all of them will wear out like a garment; Like clothing, You will change them and they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end. The children of Your servants will continue, And their descendants will be established before You,” (Psalm 102:25-28).

    Such lofty proclamations are very specific to Jehovah and could not be applied to any other being. The Christian and the Jehovah’s Witness can agree that this is who Jehovah is, and there is none other. When we turn to the New Testament, however, we see something incredible. The author of the Book of Hebrews writes:

    “But of the Son, He says, ‘Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, And the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness above Your companions.’ And, ‘You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Your hands; They will perish, but You remain; And they all will become old like a garment, And like a mantle You will roll them up; Like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end,’” (Hebrews 1:8-12).

    The author quotes two Psalms and says that they were talking about the Son. Both of them are powerful testimonies of Christ’s deity, yet for our purposes here, the second is the most important. Notice, again, that verses 10-12 cite the passage:

    “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Your hands; They will perish, but You remain; And they all will become old like a garment, And like a mantle You will roll them up; Like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end.”

    He is quoting here from Psalm 102, a prayer to Jehovah by name that could not be talking to or about any other being. The citation even addresses the son as the “Lord.” Again, throughout the Psalm, in the Hebrew, the word “Lord” is the name “YHWH” or “Jehovah.” The Book of Hebrews thus plainly identifies Jesus as Jehovah.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Vanderhoven7 I wasn't aware of Zechariah 3:2 (1977 NASB) saying 'And the LORD [Jehovah] said to Satan, "The LORD [Jehovah] rebuke you Satan! ....".' The 1984 NWT in that verse says 'Then [the angel of] Jehovah said to Satan: "Jehovah rebuke you ...".' I can see how you and could see Zechariah 3:2 saying that it speaks of two persons named Jehovah in light of what verse. But until I see more evidence for that view, II think the NWT's use of "[the angel of]" is likely correct in that verse, in light of what verse 1 says. I think another possible way of interpreting the verse could be that Jehovah God the Father is saying that he himself rebuked Satan. In other words I think that a translation expressing the meaning of verse could possibly be accurately worded as follows. 'And Jehovah said to Satan, I Jehovah rebuke you Satan! ...".'

    Another thing to keep in mind is that the Greek Septuagint likely says "Iesous" ["Jesus"] in verse one in place of "Joshua" since the name Iesous/Jesus (though not referring to Christ) is the Greek transliteration of the name Joshua. Interestingly the NT says that Jesus Christ is a high priest.

    That verse can be understood as an individual (not named Jehovah) acting on behalf of Jehovah, and as result the credit is given to Jehovah. That view is like how human rulers are often said to have taken various actions, when literally it were persons under their authority who literal took the actions, acting in behalf of the rulers.

    The words in Hebrews 1:8 which say "Your throne, O God" ["God is your throne" in the 1984 NWT) are a quote of part of Psalms 45:6. I have done research about that I have concluded that the translation of "God is your throne" of part of Psalms 45:6 is a plausible one, referring to a person (the Messiah/Christ) receiving his kingly authority from God the Father. But I can also see the plausibility of the idea of the Messiah being referred to as God.

    The passages you mentioned from Psalms in reference to Hebrews chapter 1, as well as what Paul said in Romans (about Jesus is Lord (Jehovah)), and some other verses caused me (during the latter part of the time of me being an independent Christian) to conclude there is some support for the binity doctrine, for part of the NT saying that Jesus is in some sense Jehovah and can thus be called "Jehovah", and that it is OK for a Christian to pray to Jesus and to worship Jesus. As a result, as once or twice I prayed to Jehovah before I became a convinced atheistic naturalist.

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Hi DJW

    This thread is not particularly about the Trinity, but there does seem to be considerable evidence that Jesus is Jehovah when comparing OT passages with passages in the NT.

    Randal Waters cites a few.

    [1] Hebrews 1:10 is a quotation of the LXX version of Ps. 102:25. The Psalm is unquestionably speaking of Jehovah, yet the writer of Hebrews applies it to Christ! Knowing this, the New World Translating Committee broke their own rules and refused to insert "Jehovah" into Hebrews 1:10. *2

    [2] 1 Peter 3:14,15 is a quote from Isa. 8:12,13, which obviously contained the tetragram in the Hebrew text and referred to "sanctifying Jehovah in our hearts." Yet, Peter paraphrases it and applies it directly to Christ, saying that we are to sanctify CHRIST in our hearts! Again, their Translating Committee has shown bias in not following their own rules. Even the footnote in the Kingdom Interlinear shows that many of the modern Hebrew Bibles have "Jehovah" in 1 Peter 3:15. But since that would identify Christ with Jehovah, the Translating Committee could not face up to it.

    [3] Acts 2:21 quotes from a prophecy in Joel 2:2832 that contained the tetragram in the Hebrew text, saying, "Whoever calls upon the name of Jehovah will be delivered." Yet Peter quotes it and applies it to Jesus in Acts 2:21, as verse 38 says, "And Peter said to them, `Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.'"

    Additionally, the name of Jesus takes great precedence over "Jehovah" in the New Testament. Just in the book of Acts alone, note the overwhelming importance of the name of Christ, with no mention of the covenant name of God:

    Men healed in the NameActs 3:6,16; 4:10,30
    Salvation in the NameActs 4:12; 10:43; 22:16
    Baptism in the NameActs 2:38; 8:16
    Forgiveness through the NameActs 10:43
    Teaching and preaching in the NameActs 8:12; 4:18; 5:28
    Calling upon the NameActs 2:21; 9:14,21
    Speaking in the NameActs 4:17; 9:27,29
    Suffering for the nameActs 9:16; 15:26; 5:41
    Bearing the Name before the nationsActs 9:15
    Paul once opposed the NameActs 26:9
    Called or designated by the NameActs 11:26

    The New Testament record shows that the Name of Jesus holds primary importance, rather than the covenant Name of Jehovah. This is in line with Hebrews 1:1,2 where it is said that God, though speaking through his covenant people in times past, is now speaking through the Son; who is the exact representation of the Father (but not the Father). Note also other NT texts that speak of the Name of Jesus as being the most important name there is: Eph. 1:20,21; Phil. 2:9; 2 Thess. 1:12; 1 Cor. 1:2; Col. 3:17; 1 John 3:23; Rev. 2:3, 13. Jesus also spoke of the importance of his name in passages such as: Mt. 7:22; 10:22; 12:1521; 18:5,20; 19:29; 24:9; 28:19,20 (just to cite Matthew).

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Vanderhoven7, I added more content to my prior post before I refreshed the web page and saw your most recent post (about 8 minutes before I made the un-revised version of this post) in this topic thread. Please read my revised post. I agrees with some of what you said in your post.

    I am aware that Hebrews 1:10-12 quotes Psalms 102:25-27; I note (written by me) in one of my 1984 NWT Bibles saying such.

    Thankfully as a result of me now being an atheist I no longer believe I have to believe in some kind of supernatural god. I am now free to disbelieve in all god concepts, without any fear of possibly being wrong. I thus don't have to believe in polytheism, henotheism, trinity, binity, pure monotheism, angels, demons, or even deism. All of those god (and god-like) concepts (other than deism) are strange to me, and as a result of my research (which led me to atheism) all of them (except perhaps deism) are proven false to well beyond a reasonable doubt. I also think there is a good scientifically based case against deism, but that case is not as strong as the case against the other mentioned god (and god-like) concepts.

    As to the concept of pantheism, that god concept is unclear, for what does it mean for one to say that the universe (or multiverse, if such exists) is god/God? Is the universe, as a whole, in some sense conscious? If not, how it can it be thought of god/God - even though it created us and even though we are a part of it?

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Correction: In my post which is about an hour older than this post, where I said 'As a result, as once or twice I prayed to Jehovah before I became a convinced atheistic naturalist" I meant to say 'As a result, as once or twice I prayed to Jesus before I became a convinced atheistic naturalist."

    Vanderhoven7, what do you think the Jews, specifically those who both believe Judaism and practice it, think of the NT's (the verses you cited) handling of passages about YHWH in the Hebrew Scriptures OT?What do you think they think of the NT's applying various OT verses about YHWH to Jesus?

    The Book of Jubilees (an OT Apocryphal book which is part of the sacred scripture of the Ethiopic Orthodox Church, a Jewish leaning Christian Church) says that YHWH God ordered the angels of God to worship Adam (since Adam, according to Genesis and the Book of Jubilees) was made in God's image. It says that one angel, namely Satan, refused to do so because Satan thought it was wrong for himself to worship a being who was created later than Satan himself. From a scriptural point of view it would indeed to wrong for anyone to worship Adam instead of God, but interestingly some of NT writers say that Jesus (whom Paul says is the second Adam) should be worshiped).

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