How can Babylon the Great be the WORLD of false religion?

by BoogerMan 78 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    🤦‍♂️ I don’t really care about your assessment of my statement about consistency with (neither dependence on nor appeal to) mainstream scholarship. Whether my actual views are correct is not in any way dependant on how you assess my presentation of ancillary information. This isn’t a formal debate, and I broke no ‘rules’, and you’ve offered nothing at all regarding my actual views on the subject, so at this point you’re just a troll.

    Perhaps that is the way you usually speak,

    It’s not clear how your own use of an informal phrase is supposed to be some reflection on ‘how I speak’. 🤣

  • Vidiot
    Vidiot
    BoogerMan - How can Babylon the Great be the WORLD of false religion?”

    ’Cause Freddy Franz said so.


  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    It is one of the marks of a mature thinker to seek out multiple expert opinions allowing that taken together they likely represent more than the individual efforts on their own. People who have themselves read and studied a topic as a career are certainly worthy of consulting. Even views that are effectively refuted through better data or reasoning, offer value as exercises. It would be nice if the first book we read on a topic (especially a topic like religious history) had the whole picture but that would be asking too much.

    This approach to life in general results in conclusions based upon best evidence. Who could expect more?

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    It would be nice if they actually provide an opinion on the content rather than getting hung up on irrelevant tangential nonsense.

    If someone says 1+1=2, and later happens to say that other sources also agree, it is just asinine to say the person is ‘wrong’.

  • PioneerSchmioneer
    PioneerSchmioneer

    I have actually been part of this discussion from the earliest part. I have contributed much, beginning 4 days ago, stating how Babylon the Great could be Rome or Jerusalem, even making a list of how since from the very beginning, starting from the Church Fathers, Christians have used various ways of interpreting Revelation, including the:

    • Preterist View
    • Critical View
    • Idealist View
    • Historist View and
    • Futurist View.

    I've answered other people's questions on this very thread afterwards. I wasn't just jumping on you. I've been following this subject since the beginning.

    Or haven't you noticed?

    Then it got to the point that two of you were going back and forth sticking your tongues out at each other like infants and, instead of offering anything worthwhile, just claiming the same thing: "My argument is based on sound scholarship."

    But you didn't offer that scholarship. So I stepped in and posted what I did knowing that you were just angry, not thinking--just being emotional.

    You are just mad because I pointed out that anyone can say what you did, like little school kids calling each other names. Your are mad that I called you out, and if your argument is really all that you say it is, where are all these scholars and academics that you say you have supporting you?

    Instead of wasting your time calling me a troll, you could have typed out all the information to prove you're point.

    But you have no point. You are just angry.

    When you give a report, you have to cite your sources, you just can't say it is supported by scholars. Which scholars? What studies? Where can we find them? What books? What thesis? When was it published? Who wrote it?

    It's called a "bibliography," and when you have a point, you support it, something like this:

    At Acts 21:20, the author is merely stressing the phenomenal growth of Christianity among Jews because the Greek expression for "many thousands of believers" actually means myriads or tens of thousands, and according to the best scholarship we have, there was only about 1000-7000 Christians between 60-70 AD when this account supposedly happened (and not all of them were Jewish).--Bart Ehrman, Big Think: How Christianity Conquered Rome Through Simple Math, 7/23/2023.

    That last part, the bold section, is the bibliography. The argument isn't based on the scholarship--it doesn't fall on just one report because there are others--but the person presenting the statement on the text in Acts presents their view, and a voice to help people to understand why they reach their conclusion.

    Just saying your work is supported by scholars doesn't prove anything, however. And just because it has a scholar to back it up doesn't prove you are right. The use of a bibliography is when you quote or cite another's work in your method of reasoning. Your work still has to be tested. If the scholar is taken away, does the method of reasoning still stand? If it does, then the critical analysis is called a "theory," and it works. That is critical analytic theory.

    If all you can do is quote scholars like "proof texts," you might as well quote the Bible as your authority, like the Watchtower. Quoting others is not proving you are a critical thinker. Being able to figure things out in the way an academic can by applying the methods they use--that is critical thinking.

    There's a difference.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    But I didn’t say you hadn’t been otherwise involved in the thread, and I don’t need condescending comments about bibliographies. Nor do I need you to continue the straw man about me supposedly claiming my views are supported by scholars, which is not a claim I made anywhere in this thread, and my views are instead based on analysis of the primary texts. But since you haven’t indicated disagreement with any content I’ve offered, I can only assume assent (that’s sarcasm, though apparently you’re the expert at judging such things, so you presumably know that anyway). Which is still better than you just incorrectly assuming I’m angry. Instead you only prattled on about methodology that I already know, pretending you’re some superior arbiter but really just contributing further to an irrelevant tangent. Entirely unhelpful.

  • PioneerSchmioneer
    PioneerSchmioneer

    I don't have anything more to offer to you.

    But what's more unhelpful? Discussing how to offer a critical analysis of the subject?

    Or posting endlessly again and again in an argument with somebody when you could be providing that evidence you say you have that you could enlighten us with but you refuse to show?

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    🤷‍♂️

    You’ve offered no critique of my actual content in this thread or elsewhere (other than condescension and a straw man about appeal to authority), so despite the potential, you’re not really of any value to me.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    even making a list of how since from the very beginning, starting from the Church Fathers, Christians have used various ways of interpreting Revelation, including the:
    • Preterist View
    • Critical View
    • Idealist View
    • Historist View and
    • Futurist View.
    This is the kind of stuff that might sound impressive and is of interest from a historical point of view, particularly in seeing how the church adapted over time, often in response to successive failed expectations. But the mutually exclusive concepts, most of which rely on magical thinking and superstition (especially Futurism and Historicism but also Preterism with its erroneous position of pushing application of Daniel into the first century) or relegate too much to symbolism (forms of Idealism), are not particularly useful in any practical way, nor do they represent the original intent of the various biblical apocalypses.
  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    I have actually been part of this discussion from the earliest part.

    Actually, I correctly identified Babylon the Great as Rome very early in the thread, before you elaborated on extraneous church traditions (some of which necessarily sought to make the identity more consistent for later contemporary Christianity), which were of some historical interest but tend to muddy the waters about the original actual meaning.

    Babylon the Great was Rome—a city on seven hills, and a city with a kingdom over other kings (basileus, βασιλεύς, Strong’s G935), the specific term used when referring to kings of Rome’s clients kingdoms (e.g, Herod at Matthew 2:3 and Mark 6:14). Jerusalem held no such position, and other proposed identities just get more and more fanciful.

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