Crisis of Conscience where to find?

by Jules Saturn 53 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • never a jw
    never a jw

    Regarding Raymond Franz books, I have both PDF copies, completely legal. I paid for them when they were still available about six years ago. Since I paid for them, I guess that gives me the right to gift them. Send me a PM

    I also have the Spanish version of CC. I didn't pay for it, so I am bit nervous about it. Anyone wants to help me unload this burden?

  • dubstepped
    never a jw - If I go by what the self employed cleaners tell me, then they make a decent living. This seems to be a very common job for the less educated.
    Interestingly enough, in the Hispanic community there's a very common job for the better educated, the type of people who could have gone to ,or actually attended university.

    Maybe that was worded strangely, but:

    1. Why WOULDN'T you go by what they tell you?

    2. It seems like you think that cleaners are not the type that could have actually attended university. You just contrasted the type of person that could have gone to university (better educated) with those that clean (less educated). In neither case did anyone actually attend college though. There are people that get into cleaning with college educations. There are people like me that excelled in school but that couldn't go to college for some reason (in my case cult conditioning).

    Being a cleaner of whatever type is looked down on and the janitor is the butt of all of the jokes. However, we actually get to go help people every day. Not all cleaners are created equal just like not all doctors are created equal. Some of us play the role of psychologist, friend, house cleaner, pet sitter, etc. while cleaning. The school janitor is often a confidant of kids at the school. Even the guy that cleans windows often interacts with the employees of the restaurant that he cleans windows at, or the homeowners at the residential homes that he or she cleans, despite the claims made above by another poster.

    My wife and I aren't getting rich. We have a good life though. Often far better than those looking down their nose at us. We live within our means. We invest for retirement. We have a wealth of friends and a huge network that was there to support us when we left the cult. Most attended my wife's first birthday party when we got out. We go to their houses for Christmas, Thanksgiving, New Years, Halloween, etc.

    Those that are self-employed or full business owners have more skills than cleaning a toilet. They have to do their own bookkeeping, accounting, marketing, sales, inventory control, equipment repair, and more. Don't sell people short just because they do a job that many think is beneath them.

  • dubstepped
    @dubstepped....Can you check on that at some point please ,
    Because I remember him too, but as I remember it, he never finished off the entire book , before they got pulled.

    Hmmm....maybe I never listened to the whole thing then, lol. I don't know, I will check if I remember when I get home tonight. It seemed like the end. It went through his forced disassociation and everything, I thought.

  • never a jw
    never a jw

    @Jdub: "It seems like you think that cleaners are not the type that could have actually attended university"

    I like your posts, but on this one you seem to have thin skin. I know of only one couple who run a very successful cleaning company. Both have university degrees. Everyone else that I have met in the cleaning business has education ranging from literally nothing to high school. That could be several dozens people. In my post I referred to people who do the physical work, not the ones hiring and firing.

    When I say "if I go by..." my only intention is to be objective, I have no personal experience in the cleaning business, so I am forced to rely on other people's anecdotal accounts regarding pay, which can vary widely from person to person.

    Nothing wrong with making a living in the cleaning business, but generally speaking, the people in the trenches don't make a lot of money. They make decent money only. Also, generally speaking, the average education of those people in the trenches is below 12th grade. I wish I could say otherwise, but that doesn't square with the facts.

  • never a jw
    never a jw


    Let me throw a bit of a personal information. I have a mechanical engineering degree, but I repair copiers (i will leave the long version for another time) for a living and I do quite well. In fact, I easily make double as much as most mechanical engineers do. However, just like in the cleaning business, most copier technicians don't have university degrees. That's a piece of reality. Nothing demeaning or wrong, just reality. Don't easily take offense at reality, especially if someone is trying to describe a type of work and the people who do it, as I tried in my previous post.

  • dubstepped

    Admittedly I may have thin skin on the topic, but your words didn't just refer to the actual obtaining of a degree but rather people who could have gone to college. Perhaps I'm projecting as I could have gone but didn't and have regrets simply in that it was a challenge I missed out on, or that I get tired of bring treated like a dummy because of what I do for a living. However, it felt like from what I quoted above you were discussing intelligence more than the mere college education. You can have one without the other.

    I realize that most cleaners you know didn't go to college, but that doesn't mean they couldn't have or weren't smart enough. There are loads of morons in college, lol. A degree doesn't mean what it used to.

    Anyway, glad you found something that works for you. Sounds like you have a good business. There are lots of good businesses out there, many of which require no college. There is so much opportunity out there. In the end it isn't about how much money you make or if you have more degrees than a thermometer, it's about how happy you are in life.

    I am one of those that makes decent money. The two of us working together make pretty good money. We are in the trenches every day. As far as money goes, at a point it's not how much you make, but rather what you do with it.

  • never a jw
    never a jw

    "There is so much opportunity out there. In the end it isn't about how much money you make or if you have more degrees than a thermometer, it's about how happy you are in life" You can say that again...and again

    More details about my knowledge of jobs by JW's:

    My exposure to JW's is by means of the Hispanic immigrant community in L.A., of which I am part of. All the people that I know, except for the couple that I mentioned above, are immigrants or first generation Americans. I know them well. they are my friends. The levels of intelligence can run the whole spectrum, but because they had a rough early life, in most cases working since childhood (often as young as 6), they had no chance to attend university. I don't question intelligence or ability. I never tried to demean any type of work, I simply attempted to describe based on my observations. My conclusions are the most common jobs among immigrant Hispanic JW's are cleaning and landscaping, generally performed by those with lower education; and translators, performed by those with more education, generally by first generation Hispanic Americans or immigrants raised and educated in the U.S. These jobs will never expose you to the "dangers" of evolution or history or bible scholarship. Therefore, I feel the JW leadership is quite happy with that status quo. Nothing else intended.

    OK, off to fix some copiers.

  • dubstepped

    Interesting observation. I never thought about that, though I don't think the governing body ever pushed for JWs to be cleaners or whatever.

    I actually was exposed to conversations about evolution and the bible and such while cleaning. There was a pivotal conversation in my awakening process with a cleaning client that asked about JWs and he liked a lot of Buddhist principles. He questioned things based on his experience of living and working in China for some time and really threw us for a loop.

    You are right though in that many types of cleaning (not so much residential) or landscaping or whatever are fairly solitary. It is a status quo that benefits the cult which thrives on isolation, much like home schooling and its increasing popularity among JWs.

  • stan livedeath
    stan livedeath

    who in their right mind would pay £500 for one of Ray Franz' books ?? i bought C of C about 8 years back--new--i think less than £10---and gave it to another member on here when i was done with it..

    as for window cleaning--i speak from experience here. the reason why pioneers do it is--you can earn a weeks wages in 2 days. i did..

  • steve2

    Here in New Zealand, JW males do a lot of carpet cleaning, including running their own steam carpet cleaning businesses.

    While I have nothing against JW carpet cleaners, I think they really need to focus more on cleaning up what their organization tries to sweep under the rug. That could do with some thorough steam cleaning.

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