the gaping hole in this week's weak wt study.

by waton 53 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  waton

  Luke is sometimes quoted as the justification for only the anointed partaking the emblems:

  sbf: thank you for that detail. Interestingly though, these first partakers were of the earthly class at the time. and all jws are potential anointed ones, of course.

  spiritual Israel—are in the “new covenant”.

  waton says: fine, trouble for wt writers is, that the "israel of god" the 12 tribes are far more numerous then the 144 000. after all, these come out of the 12 larger tribes.

  According to wt writings, the '12 tribes' are all the 'not anointed' citizens,

  not one scriptures says that only the "sealed" should partake. The new covenant is for forgiveness of sins that all need.

  The new covenant is much broader than the kingdom covenant.

  The gb is powerless to impart life, which is promised exclusively through the symbol of the emblem's consumption.
  
  
  
  
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  waton

  the 144 , 000 are Jews that have been saved

  jh: watchtower writers operate under the assumption that all references to "jew" Israelite, has changed for Christians with Paul's introduction in Gal 6:16 of the 'Israel of God" aka "spiritual Israel", made up of spiritual jews.

  All Israel was in the law covenant, all spiritual jews are in the new covenant, all must take the emblems of that covenant for forgiveness of sin.

  Particularly the so called OS, because unlike the "anointed" , who die to go to heaven, the supposed future survivors of Armageddon would never personally pay the penalty for sin.

  Christ died for the world. the world's believers, , not only the 144000 should partake.

  no text says otherwise.
  
  
  
  
  
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  Rattigan350

  Vidqun:

  "To the contrary, note what Jesus says of you if you don't partake: “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day” (cf. John 6:48-54 ESV)."

  Jesus did not mean that literally that people have to eat and drink anything to get life.
  
  
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  waton

  Jesus did not mean that literally that people have to eat and drink anything to get life.

  R: of course. the language refers to an abstract concept, but took on a symbolism when the phrase " "--"this means my body--" was introduced into the story. " drink all of you " is taken to mean those present at the last supper, all earthly hope believers. bew. ( even Jesus had to have a early earthly assurance to be the second Adam).

  But not a peep out of wt speakers, why that affirmation is not required today, when and how it was scripturally abandoned ,
  
  
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  jhine

  I totally agree that everyone should partake in the Bread and Wine .

  I still don't see this 2 hope teaching as valid. The quote from Revelation says specifically 12.000 from each tribe . And no one has commented on the Great Crowd , who are in front of the Throne

  Jan
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  nowwhat?

  Rev. 19 clearly says the great crowd are in heaven
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  jhine

  Yes, nowwhat ? Exactly.

  Jan
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  waton

  Revelation says specifically 12.000 from each tribe . And no one has commented on the Great Crowd , who are in front of the Throne

  jh : going back to the exodus/ passover theme of the OP. Originally it was the firstborn of each tribe leaving Egypt, the passed over ones, that were supposed to t take the lead, direct worship in the young nation, --- until Moses, Levi usurped that by institutionalizing a clergy type monopoly arrangement. ( writing the narrative too).

  Rev. 7 brings it back to the original, the 12 000 are the token firstborn of each tribe, that will be priest, leaders.

  the non- anointed leftover after that sealing , the ordinary joes, and josephines could well be that great crowd. after all there is nothing wrong with having some take charge, like the 144 ks/

  revelation is ambiguous though, the New Jerusalem ( the 144 000 ) is said to come down from heaven, with open pearly gates, named after the 12 tribes. Supporting the idea, that the great crowd, the 12 tribes will stream into it to get at the water.

  One way or another. all Israelites ate the bread, (later drank the wine) the lamb. blood on the doors, not just the [future] kings or priests. ALL. families. not just the firstborn.

  not one text is offered to justify that big black hole.

  the exclusion from partaking of most, for whom Jesus died.
  
  
  
  
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  Vidqun

  Rattigan, what did Clint Eastwood as "Dirty Harry" ask the criminal: Do you feel lucky? It's a gamble, I know, but do you want to chance it? The language and symbolism point to the memorial. The book of John does not feature the memorial celebration at all except for John 6. The difference here is that he spoke to everyone, including Pharisees. Interestingly, the chapter ends by referencing Judas, about to betray him (John 6:71). The contrary position is explained by NET footnote:

  John 6:53 (NET footnote) says: Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood. These words are at the heart of the discourse on the Bread of Life, and have created great misunderstanding among interpreters. Anyone who is inclined toward a sacramental viewpoint will almost certainly want to take these words as a reference to the sacrament of the Lord’s Supper, or the Eucharist, because of the reference to ‘eating his flesh’ and ‘drinking his blood’ (John 6:53ff.; cf. Matt. 26:26-28). But this does not automatically follow: By anyone’s definition there must be a symbolic element to the eating which Jesus speaks of in the discourse, and once this is admitted, it is better to understand it here, as in the previous references in the passage, to a personal receiving of (or appropriation of) Christ and his work. Notice that in John 6:54 (NET footnote) the result (has eternal life and I will raise him up at the last day) is produced by eating (Jesus’) flesh and drinking his blood. Compare John 6:40 where the same result is produced by “looking on the Son and believing in him.” This suggests that the phrase here (eats my flesh and drinks my blood) is to be understood by the phrase in John 6:40 (looks on the Son and believes in him).

  However, I am not convinced. It is no coincidence that Jesus uses this very same terminology when instituting the memorial of his death. Early on in his ministry (already in John 6) he would be preparing the people for the Eucharist. His intimate followers, later to be anointed with holy spirit, are in a special covenant relationship with him (Matt. 19:28; Luke 22:28-30; cf. Rev. 5:9, 10). They would be celebrating the memorial in remembrance of their Lord, for forgiveness of sins as well as being participants of the new covenant as leaders of the Israel of God (Matt. 26:28; 1 Cor. 11:25; Gal. 6:15, 16; Rev. 14:1-5; 20:4). Jesus’ earthly subjects would celebrate the memorial in remembrance of their Lord, for forgiveness sins and being participants of the new covenant as part of the Israel of God. By so doing both groups would be unified in “proclaiming the death of the Lord until he arrives” and attaining the forgiveness of sins (Matt. 26:28; 1 Cor. 11:24-26; Gal. 6:15, 16; cf. John 6:56).
  
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  waton

  They would be celebrating the memorial in remembrance of their Lord, for forgiveness of sins as well as being participants of the new covenant as leaders of the Israel of God (Matt. 26:28; 1 Cor. 11:25; Gal. 6:15, 16; Rev. 14:1-5; 20:4). Jesus’ earthly subjects would celebrate the memorial in remembrance of their Lord, for forgiveness sins and being participants of the new covenant as part of the Israel of God. By so doing both groups would be unified in “proclaiming the death of the Lord until he arrives” and attaining the forgiveness of sins (Matt. 26:28; 1 Cor. 11:24-26; Gal. 6:15, 16; cf. John 6:56).

  V : repetition for emphasis ! even if it will take a 1000 years to have sins erased according to wt. 1000 years of sheers.

  celebrating by raising the cup to their lips. read my lips!