How many TRUE BELIEVERS do you think are left in the Organization? (page 6)

Funky

Believe it? Probably most.

Understand it, able to defend it somewhat coherently to a moderately intelligent non-believer? Maybe 10%.

By "belief", I would estimate that 80+ % believe the following:

1) There is an invisible God, Jehovah, with an invisible son Jesus Christ, who have selected JWs to give them exclusive access to "the truth"

2) There are 8 guys in upstate New York who have this special mystical connection with Jehovah and have it all sorted out

3) The earth is "soon" going to be a paradise, if I don't break the rules I'm going to live forever, and once again see my dead [wife / husband / child / parent / fill-in-the-blank]

4) Anything beyond this - "just look at our website, it explains everything" and / or point 2 above

Some make the unwarranted assumption that members of a religion who don’t know the doctrines are not real believers. Often the opposite is the case. True believers are often not concerned with the minutiae of doctrine. They believe the story as a whole because it makes sense to them and all the people that matter to them believe the same thing. Are we going to say a Christian who prays every day and believes in salvation isn’t a strong believer if she doesn’t know the Ten Commandments or the Beatitudes?

For JWs, they believe that God wants the best for them, and endless life on paradise with those they love sounds like it meets that want. It sounds better than what they hear other churches offer about life in heaven and so on. They also have a list of things other religions obviously get wrong, like fighting in wars, worshipping idols, priests and popes who live in palaces, most don’t preach, or follow the Bible standards on sex, and so on. All those sound like pretty good reasons for believing JWs have the Truth. They don’t need to get bogged down in the details and they have a general impression that apostates are nit pickers who don’t see the big picture, or are bitter for some other reason like getting disfellowshipped. Their family and friends all believe it’s the Truth too, so while there are some things they can’t explain, such as the generation doctrine, the number of anointed increasing, some weird remarks from GB members, and so on, they can live with that, because the overall picture makes sense.

Funky

I would agree with that, just substitute "overall picture satisfies them" for the last 4 words.

Ever notice the common WT pitch in their "literature"? They always talk about how the Bible gives "satisfying" answers to "life's big questions" - not "true", "honest", "reasonable", or "realistic" answers, but "satisfying".

That's their market - people who want to be "satisfied", even if that "satisfaction" is derived from anachronistic & self-contradictory interpretations of the ancient writings of a bunch of Iron Age goatherds and wanderers.

pistolpete

slimboyfat
True believers are often not concerned with the minutiae of doctrine. They believe the story as a whole because it makes sense to them and all the people that matter to them believe the same thing.
they can live with that, because the overall picture makes sense.

That's a pretty good assessment!

With that in mind, what would you say---Is the WRONG WAY to approach a jw-(say a relative) to help her/him wake up??

Perhaps pointing out "Things" why the Watchtower is wrong" ---is not a good idea. Like pointing out the Child abuse cases.

What about instead pointing out "Why the Bible is not God's Word." since that is not attacking the Organization. What's your opinion on this?????

slimboyfat

I don’t rate the success of trying to convert JWs in general. Maybe it’s a skill that a few people have got, but in general it’s pretty difficult I would say.

One thing I would say is it’s pretty useless talking about doctrine. If you’re going to talk to JWs about anything then I would focus relentlessly on the “thought control”, and just keep the subject on that. Because it’s a real weak spot in JW teaching. It’s totally indefensible the way Watchtower tell people they are not allowed to think for themselves, and every JW knows that deep down.

Questions like: why do we expect other religions to examine their beliefs but we are not allowed to question ours? Why do we expect other people to read our literature but we won’t read theirs? If we have the truth then why are we told we can’t listen to material written by opposers? If our minds are so weak that we could be persuaded to leave the truth because of lies, then how can we be sure we have the truth in the first place? Because it’s the same “weak” mind that believed JWs have the truth in the first place. If we can’t trust our own mind to identify the truth or falsehood of outside material, then how can we trust that our mind identified truth in the Watchtower literature?

There are no good JW answers to these questions in my opinion. In most cases JWs will attempt to change the subject, even attack your character, or just end the conversation. If the JW keeps talking to you and engages with these questions then it may get you somewhere. It’s better than debating doctrine or scandals anyway, which usually won’t get you anywhere, unless the person is already wanting to leave the JWs, in which case it would become apparent you’re pushing at an open door.

stan livedeath

I'm going to live forever, and once again see my dead ~~[wife / husband / child / parent~~ / fill-in-the-blank]

thats it

aaah believe..aaah BELIEVE

what do you believe in ? what ? AAAH BEEE LEEEVE

smiddy3

Jehovah`s Witnesses like to claim that they follow first century Christians and that their teachings are stictly in line with the bible ? Right ?

Wrong

1 / First Century Christians" baptized in the name of the" Father the Son and the Holy Ghost"

Jehovah`s Witnesses don`t do that.

2 / First Century Christians taught and preached the kingdom of Jesus Christ .

Jehovah`s Witnesses announce the Kingdom of Jehovah ,......that is not said or taught in the new Testament.

JW`s preach a new gospel.

3 / First Century Christians find salvation by faith and grace beleiving in Jesus Christ.

Jehovah`s witnesses find salvation by trusting and obeying the GB and counting how many hours they do in announcing Jehovah`s Kingdom.

Not a Bible teaching.

slimboyfat

I don’t think the term “Kingdom of Jesus” appears in the gospels. It’s mainly Kingdom of God, or in the case of Matthew, Kingdom of Heaven. The closest I can think of is Revelation 11:15 which talks about the kingdom of the world becoming “the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ”, in which case “Lord” must refer to Jehovah.

Disillusioned JW

I can conceive of the the JW/WT religion greatly modifying their shunning doctrine, mainstreaming their teaching about blood, and dropping the doctrine about 1914. I can also conceive of them dropping the teaching that the last days began in a specified year, but I can't conceive of them ceasing to teach that human society is living in the last days. That is because at their core the JW's are essentially semi-fundamentalist premillennialist apocalyptic evangelizing Christians who believe the Bible basically means what it says - and portions of the NT Bible say that the last days had already begun by the first century CE. [Though, some parts of the NT can be interpreted as saying that the last days for the world in general (not specifically for Jerusalem or Judea) would begin sometime after the 1st century CE.]

If they drop the 1914 teaching I can also see them teaching that Christ has not become king yet (other than over the Christian congregation and over those they believe are in heaven), but even that would be very hard for them. It would be very radical for them to drop the teaching that Christ has already become the king/ruler of planet Earth.

It would be easier for me to conceive of them teaching that theistic evolution (or evolutionary creationism) is consistent with the Bible's teachings, then it is for me to conceive of them ceasing to teach about the last days. Br. Russell in at least one of his old books said Jehovah might have used evolution to create nonhuman life (but not for human life since Genesis chapter two says Jehovah fashioned Adam from dirt).

mikeflood

TRUE BELIEVERS? Easy, about the 8 and something millions of publishers. People that are able to put a face and go door to door, at least before the pandemia. However there are a lot of others that are "symphatizers" like one person that I know, he is not at meetings, etc. but one time say to me "In my heart, I know is the truth" !

So total worldwide? About 30 million, if not more. When the next GB 3.0 take charge that people easy are gonna be in the Borg, of course is gonna be different than now.

How many TRUE BELIEVERS do you think are left in the Organization?

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