How many TRUE BELIEVERS do you think are left in the Organization?

by pistolpete 72 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • LongHairGal
    LongHairGal

    PHIZZY:

    You are probably right that there are several grades of “Depth of Delusion”. In addition to that there are levels of fakery among JWs. So, in any congregation it is impossible to know how many people there even believe it. And of those who do, how much? One thing is for certain: that number of people is surely dwindling.

    All I know is that I am not among that number having gotten myself out of this trap about twenty years ago. I am so grateful I wasn’t the obedient type to accept what the GB and others said. I wouldn’t be Retired if I was a ‘true believer’ or follower. Maybe because I wasn’t born-in? Who knows.

    Let’s try to have a Happy New Year and be glad we’re Out.

  • Guard
    Guard

    Interestingly, when we talk about the depth of delusion, we need to understand that the real sons of light do not have delusion. Because they are in the light. They are in the light because they hate lies. Being in the light does not mean the deepest understanding of prophecies or other things, although it is very desirable. To be in the light means to hate evil.

    Probably only the laziest did not say that GB is an exact likeness of the man of lawlessness. After all, it is clear from the text of Paul that the man of lawlessness is directly connected with the preaching of the false parousia.

    The most interesting words are written further: around the man of lawlessness gather only those who perish who do not love the truth.

    Therefore, the moment must come when ALL TRUE BELIEVERS must leave the organization. As Jesus said, every tree that My Father did not plant will be uprooted. The true believers are the life and blood of the organization. That's why it dies, because the true believers leave it. If not literally, then mentally. And the passivity of people is the basis for the fact that any business will stop and die.

  • Hopeless1
    Hopeless1

    Fed up jw said, -

    ‘My mother was baptized in 1942. Was a firm believer up to the point she developed Alzheimer's dementia and died. She said shortly before she lost what rational thinking ability she had, "If Jehovah's Witnesses had been then what they are now, I would NEVER have become one!" ‘

    ditto this, I was babtised in mid 60’s and was a ‘true’ believer for 4 decades, was ready to die for it, would defend it to the hilt against any naysayer.

    In spite of recognising hypocrisy right from the start, totally believed it to be ‘the Truth’, the only truth.

    if you had told me even 15 years ago that I would become what to JWs is an apostate, I would have given you a hundred reasons why that would never happen.

    From what I have seen personally, by far the most people continue on due to the fact they have an investment in their religion, - family, friends, business, other support networks, or maybe have that constant fear over their heads,

    ‘What if, just what if they are right after all about Armageddon coming soon?’

    but they dare not voice their god-given right to state an opinion for fear of the gossip-mongers who are and never were friends worthy of the title.

    What kind of atmosphere is that to exist in?

    This is my first ever post here though I have been reading almost daily for 2 or three years now, I have lived through your joys and your pains with you, worried over you during times of trial, (especially the Ozzie bush fires last year), and often felt like reaching out to encourage so many of you, held back by fear I guess, - please forgive me,

    - And good wishes to all of you for the year to come 😊

  • Guard
    Guard
    Hopeless1
    I... often felt like reaching out to encourage so many of you, held back by fear I guess, - please forgive me,

    It's not your fault. Guilt is the tool that liars use to control their victims. They make up rules, and they blame you if you break those rules. In true Christianity, there is no list of rules, and therefore no sense of guilt. Therefore, Christians need to learn to live by the Spirit, not by the rules.

    Do you know the difference between Spirit and rules? The spirit is different from the law, just as the wind is different from the sail. So take your wings and take off.


    ___________________

    I don't speak English, but I want to communicate with my spiritual brothers. I am not an anointed one, I am not a prophet, I am a simple man. I hate it when people make idols of other people. I just wait The God`s Kingdom.

    On guard


  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Impossible to say how many true believers there are. Plus belief is a spectrum anyway. It’s not as if you have true believers on one side and completely cynical JWs in name only on the other side. There will be some in either extreme, but there are gradations too.

    It’s too easy to think that, just because we see through falsehoods in the religion, that therefore most others probably do too but are just keeping it to themselves. Our estimation of the views of JWs too easily just becomes a reflection of our own view.

    If we are looking for more “objective” measures of commitment then I think there are a few that are difficult to explain away on theory that most JWs no longer really believe it. Actions speak louder than words, or louder than doubts, as the case may be.

    For example the number of JWs who commit time to being “pioneers” has gone up in recent years. There are huge numbers of JWs who have foregone further education. And there are many JWs who are shunning family who have left the organisation. All these actions would seem to indicate a level of commitment and belief in the organisation that is not easily brushed aside.

    On the other hand there are instances of JWs pursuing education anyway, delaying baptism for their kids, only doing the bare minimum in meetings and ministry to still count as a member.

    It’s too easy to focus on one side or the other depending on what you want to see. I think it’s a difficult question to answer.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    One objective measure it might be worth examining is level of donations, so far a such information is available. Personally I’ve been surprised at the increase in donations locally in recent years. This is difficult to explain on the theory that most JWs no longer believe it. Because people don’t give money to causes they don’t believe in. The Catholic Church for example reportedly lost a lot of financial support in the wake of revelations of clerical abuse, especially in places like Ireland and Chicago. Have JW donations gone down in recent years? I’ve not seen evidence for that.

  • mynameislame
    mynameislame

    I sometimes wonder how many would stay if they actually stopped and thought about how living forever would play out. I'm not saying I wouldn't like a few more years, but forever is very long time, even if you get to play with Pandas.

  • pistolpete
    pistolpete
    slimboyfat

    Plus belief is a spectrum anyway. It’s not as if you have true believers on one side and completely cynical JWs in name only on the other side. There will be some in either extreme, but there are gradations too.

    Here’s what I think of that “Spectrum” of belief and how we can perhaps understand “Gradations” in BELIEF.

    When Rutherford the Judge introduced the idea of a paradise earth for a GREAT CROWD, as a separate prize for those more attracted to Earth than to Heaven, the count-down began. The count-down being tied to the year 1914 and the Generation that would not die. The Idea was that anyone who saw what happened in 1914, and understood its significance, would also have the privilege of surviving the Great Tribulation and Armageddon without dying-----IF THEY REMAIN FAITHFUL TO THE ORGANIZATION.

    This “Idea” created a “Range of Time” that could be measured and counted on for receiving a promise of Everlasting life ----if one remained faithful to this New Religious Organization that was now claiming that God had chosen as his “Only” visible channel on earth.

    The Range of Time being defined as; ONE GENERATION----Before the Great Tribulation and the ushering in of God’s Kingdom of 1000 years.That meant--you had the chance of Not Dying!

    So that first generation, second generation, third generation, and some fourth generation believed that ONE GENERATION was all this Wicked System of Things could last. It was a promise that was specifically laid out in the Holy Bible. It least it made sense back then when most people didn’t even have a bible to examine the context of what Jesus meant by “Generation”

    Any person living at that time and who witnessed or was aware of WW1 and Charles Russell’s prediction of the year 1914 would inevitably be convinced that the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society had something worth considering. I have to admit, had I been born in any of those generations and believed the Bible was God’s Word to mankind, I would have fallen for it hook, line and sinker. Especially considering that in those days there was no internet, and much ignorance in all fields. Heck, most people had no TV, Telephone, or indoor plumbing. Only the wealthy had limited things that we today take for granted.

    So for the next 70 some years all those people that joined the WT organization were True Believers.

    But here is where your “Gradations” in belief start to appear----------1975

    After 1975 the House started to crumble slowly. For those who had invested their life from the beginning; 1930s, and now in their 60s or so,----- the best choice would be to just wait it out another few years.

    20 years passed quickly and they were gone, leaving the 2nd - 3rd and 4th generation to pick up the pieces. By the time the 2nd generation came into play, it was also to late for most of them.

    But finally the 3rd generation entered the “Internet Age” Now exjw websites like Free-minds, this one, and others started popping up. Then someone published “The Gentile Times Reconsidered” and websites like this one started discussing main doctrine of the Watchtower Organization vs the Bible. Then the discussions started evolving into a Critical Analysis of the Holy Bible and before long, exjws were questioning, Noah’s flood, The Exodus of Egypt, etc.

    So here we are now. 4th Generation of Jehovah’s Witnesses holding down the fort. The Belief ideology of the 1930 has been diluted into various strengths.

    The only thing we know for sure is this, the belief ideology today is of different gradations for sure, but none of those gradations will ever come close to the “Strong unshakable Faith” in the promise that;

    The Generation that saw and understood the events that started in 1914, will also be the Generation that will witness the Great Tribulation-Armageddon-----and never DIE!

    Most born in jws know it a farce. They are fighting to go to school and live their own life. It’s a struggle for now considering the 4th generation is carrying some belief of Armageddon, but that belief is not as strong as the first generation of Jws. So a lot of conflict right now in jw families.

    That train of Belief of the 1930s is long gone and as the years continue to pass, the higher the probability that the membership will dwindle to less than a million world wide in 30 years and up, when the last of the 4th generation is also finally gone.

    Only a complete overhaul of all the doctrines, will allow such a religion that is sustained by “Last days that started in 1914 ideology” ----------- to survive.

    You can’t keep preaching 1914 in a world that continues to become more and more educated and organizations like the Watchtower finally become easy Targets for media and Government to expose them for what they really are.

    The Australia Royal Commission is just the beginning of a Governmental agency finally putting its foot down and exposing the Watchtower. Imagine 20 years from now,

  • Biahi
    Biahi

    Had a conversation with my elder dad in 1976. I told him then (I was 16), that they were false prophets. He told me no, they just “ made a mistake.” Sigh

  • Guard
    Guard
    Only a complete overhaul of all the doctrines, will allow such a religion that is sustained by “Last days that started in 1914 ideology” ----------- to survive.

    A complete revision of all doctrines will no longer help as long as all those who remember the past are alive. Who should survive? The organization or its main beneficiaries? :)

    False teachers have been parasitizing Christ's teachings for hundreds of years, and the Watchtower has been parasitizing Russell's teachings for more than a century. The next body they will eat may be someone else. But the good thing about the Bible is that you can't just turn it out, and stay clean in the information age. Even if you make a new "translation". Therefore, the problem is not in ideas and not in teachings but in parasites.

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