2 Gallons of Coffee

by Solzhenitsyn 37 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • neat blue dog
    neat blue dog
    shouldn't you two elders have been removed for staying together all night in a car?

    Not unless one of them is a "known homosexual".

  • Vidiot
    Spiral - "The pedophiles.... well, what can the organization do? No one (besides the perp and the victim) saw the crime."

    I've also come to suspect that many elders' inability to deal with the issue in a truly effective manner is actually a form of denial...

    ...essentially treating it as an anomaly, to avoid seeing it for what it's truly become; an endemic, institutionalized problem.

  • truthlover123

    I remember the days when they skulked around the yard looking in windows to catch someone they suspected of immoral acts. I could not believe it... and it was told to me thats the only way they could prove wrongdoing.

    After all, they had to keep the organization clean.

  • Vidiot

    Who'd have thought there'd be such a fine line between "wanting to do what's right" and "looking like assholes"? :smirk:

  • Spiral

    Vidiot I've also come to suspect that many elders' inability to deal with the issue in a truly effective manner is actually a form of denial...

    ...essentially treating it as an anomaly, to avoid seeing it for what it's truly become; an endemic, institutionalized problem.

    I agree. I think the denial has actually caused damage to lots of JWs, but especially elders and MS who have seen abuse first hand (and perhaps they all have to some extent at this point).

    The elder we have left in the family won't even discuss it, as if he can't hear you speaking. But back in the day, he did plenty of stalking of JWs thought to be having an affair.

  • steve2

    Love the phrase "a known homosexual" - my secret's ou; everyone knowst. Kind of like the phrase "a practising homosexual" - at my age, I don't need to practise it anymore - I know all the right moves off by heart.

    But two JW males spending the night in a car overnight in an attempt to prove that two single JW adults were alone together in a house overnight is an amusing contradiction.

    JW elders: Alert to some things, blind to others....

  • Pete Zahut
    Pete Zahut

    We disfellowshipped the couple based completely on circumstantial evidence of sexual wrongdoing because they simply "stayed the entire night". They vehemently denied engaging in any sort of porneia much less outright fornication. Nevertheless according to our elder handbook and clear branch direction, we removed this "wicked couple" as a protection to the congregation.

    Was this in Washington State? If so, I have a relative who had this happen to her about 10 years ago. She gave up trying to be "reinstated" because they wouldn't let her back in until she "confessed" to a wrongdoing she hadn't committed (she allowed a young brother to sleep on her couch one night when he showed up with no place to go, after a fight with his parents. The parents knew where he was going and called the elders who proceeded to spy on them from their car).

    Let me tell you....as a result of these Stalkers/ Elders actions / decisions, she was DF'd and her uber JW family immediately turned their back on her to the point that nearly a decade later her parents and her "still in" siblings didn't attend her wedding, have never met her husband nor have they met her 3 little children. It is heartbreaking to her that her parents and family aren't a part of her otherwise successful happy life and don't even know her children names, especially when all of it happened to her even though she wasn't guilty of any wrongdoing. The Elders weren't concerned about justice, they were angry at her for defying them and making their actions look foolish and even illegal.

    I was often considered to be "spiritually weak" by some in the congregation because I wouldn't take positions of authority offered to me. I knew on some level that what was taking place behind the scenes, was wrong and I couldn't be a part of it.

    It's only after having left, learning what I have about the "organization" and the fact that history has borne out that my suspicions were correct, that I am vindicated.

    Part of me feels badly for you that you had a part in spoiling/ruining someones life and tearing up a family but the other part of me wonders "what could you possibly have been thinking to justify hanging out in a car all night to spy on someone in the congregation ? " Have you ever tried apologizing to these people?

    The reason this sort of thing is tolerated by JW's is mostly because they don't know about it. These power tripping Elders take it upon themselves to do these things and there's really no one to stop them. The victims rarely get to tell other JW's their side of the story and if they do, they are dismissed as having a "unrepentant" attitude.

    So glad to be out of that mess !

  • APieceOfShitNamedTate

    Does anyone have a specific reference from an elders' book that talks about spying on people?

  • blondie

    APiece, I don't think the spying/stalking is in writing. It spreads by word of mouth from older elders to newer elders. One older elder told my husband that he and another elder spied on his ex-wife. They actually went up to the bedroom window and took photos. Evidently, the ex-husband was already "seeing" a sister and could not get married until he had proof that the WTS required to have his divorce to be declared scriptural. His ex-wife was df'd and he was able to marry the sister that he was already dating secretly although scripturally per the WTS he was still married; which is also a serious no-no, let alone trespassing and taking pictures through the window.

    I always wondered about elders that followed the letter of the WTS law, but seemed not to think that god saw everything and knew what was in their minds and hearts, their true motives.

    As the Israelites said when they were worshipping a false idol in the temple:

    Jehovah has left the land, and he is not seeing.

    Ezekiel 8:6-15

    And he said to me: “Son of man, do you see what terrible, detestable things the house of Israel is doing here,+ things that make me go far away from my sanctuary?+But you will see detestable things that are even more terrible.”

    7 Then he brought me to the entrance of the courtyard, and when I looked, I saw a hole in the wall. 8 He said to me: “Son of man, please bore through the wall.” So I bored through the wall, and I saw an entryway. 9 He said to me: “Go in and see the evil, detestable things that they are doing here.” 10 So I went in and looked, and I saw all sorts of images of creeping things and loathsome beasts+ and all the disgusting idols* of the house of Israel;+ they were carved on the wall all around. 11 And 70 of the elders of the house of Israel were standing before them, with Ja·az·a·niʹah the son of Shaʹphan+ standing among them. Each one had his censer in his hand, and the perfumed cloud of incense was ascending.+ 12 He said to me: “Son of man, do you see what the elders of the house of Israel are doing in the darkness, each one in the inner rooms where his idols are displayed?* For they are saying, ‘Jehovah is not seeing us. Jehovah has left the land.’”+

    13 And he went on to say to me: “You will see detestable things that are even more terrible that they are doing.” 14 So he brought me to the entrance of the north gate of the house of Jehovah, and there I saw women sitting and weeping over the god Tamʹmuz.

  • zeb

    Ok If I had a car sitting off the road near my house at night as described I would call the Police to say I had suspicious characters there.

    or throw some paint over their car.

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