Morality Without Deity

by cofty 210 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  cofty

  Let me try once more. In the op I argue from 3 perspectives that absolute morality is a delusion. Then I argue that without god as a perfect model our moral decisions do not reduce to subjective opinions.

  morality is nothing more than how we worry about the way our actions affect the well being of conscious beings. As such there are many objective facts on which to base our decisions.

  Similarly there is no such thing as an absolute perfect model of health. Exactly how strong fast flexible is a perfect 58 year old man exactly? What is the absolute standard for his perfect pulse blood pressure BMI blood count etc etc? The absence of an absolute standard does not stymie doctors from making objective judgements based on objective facts.

  It is objectively true that treating women as possessions and sex slaves of men does not promote the well being of the greatest number of people. We do not need an absolute model of perfect morality to make that judgement. We can base it on objective facts.
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  defender of truth

  
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  cofty

  Another way to address this is to think of "absolute morality" as a top-down process.

  We start with a perfect model of absolute perfect goodness - god - and everything else is measured in comparison to that. It is reminiscent of Platonic Essentialism where every triangle you have ever seen is an imperfect copy of the ideal triangle hanging somewhere in abstract space. The Platonic geometer might fear that if his essential triangle did not in fact exist he could never assess triangles in the real world - just as the theist fears that without god we can never judge anything to be good or evil

  Both are wrong.

  We can faithfully produce triangles, or any other shape, using simple geometric principles without reference to Platonic ideals. And we can make objective moral judgements by applying the tools our evolved minds possess to reason on the effects of our actions.
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  slimboyfat

  Can you give an example of a difficult moral question (as in a question that has significant support on either side) that can be settled objectively without ultimate reference to authority, whether that be God or prevailing public opinion?
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  John_Mann

  using simple geometric principles

  Simple geometric principles does not exist in nature. You never saw a point, line or a plane.

  These concepts are only in our minds. Or are only accessible with our minds. You can't even define them so why they're called "undefined terms".

  Your mind simply know these concepts. You never learnt how to access or define them, is an in-built feature in our minds.
  
  
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  cofty

  John_Mann you constantly obsess with the minutiae of any analogy I use and totally ignore the actual arguments in the OP. Why? I suspect you did nothing but speed-read the OP and then wade in with the usual apologetics about morality.

  There is no such thing as absolute moral standards. However we can discover moral facts to inform our decisions. Morality is how we worry about the way our actions affect the well-being of conscious creatures.
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  cofty

  Can you give an example of a difficult moral question (as in a question that has significant support on either side) that can be settled objectively without ultimate reference to authority, whether that be God or prevailing public opinion? - SBF

  Depends what you mean by settled.

  The typical religious objections to stem cell research can be answered using objective facts but it will never satisfy a superstitious Catholic.

  
  
  
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  John_Mann

  Cofty

  It's not minutiae but the very premises you're using.

  I cannot accept your conclusions without accepting every premise.

  This is basic debating.

  Our minds simply have in-built absolute values of morality.

  Morality does not come from religion, because you don't need religion to dictate universal moral values.

  Religion is the quest of why we possess such absolutes naturally attached in our minds. And how to explain and develop them. Of course religion copes with revelations about these in-built features too.

  Think religion as reverse engineering. That's why there's so much religions but Jesus established a very practical test to use about the several religions. He told about their fruits or if it works in the reverse engineering approach.

  That's why I previously said about the logical internal consistency in Catholicism. JWism has no consistency for instance.
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  slimboyfat

  As I understand it, Catholics hold that life is sacred from conception. How do you disprove that objectively? Or do you describe their opposition differently?
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  cofty

  Our minds simply have in-built absolute values of morality. - JM

  No they don't. We have evolved a toolkit of moral instincts. There are no absolute moral values. My reasons for saying so are spelled out in the OP which you have so far totally ignored.