Morality Without Deity

by cofty 210 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Saename

  Xanthippe - Confucius and others introduced the Golden Rule (treat others as you would be treated) at around the same time.
  

  Actually, the Golden Rule goes waaaaay back—even before Confucius.

  The Eloquent Peasant from Ancient Egypt is the first story to ever record this rule. The story dates back to ca. 19th century BCE (Middle Kingdom of Ancient Egypt.) That's around 14 centuries before Confucius. You can find this story here. The rule appears on page 174: "This is the precept: Do to the doer to make him do."

  There's also a papyrus from the Late Period of Egypt, which contains a similar rule: "That which you hate to be done to you, do not do it to another." The papyrus is damaged, so we don't have all of the text, but there's enough to see the rule itself. You can find the translation on page 95 of this document.
• 

  Saename

  John_Mann - Cofty

  Why humans evolved to perceive evil at all?

  We are the only specie to perceive evil, justice, mortality, etc.

  BTW no other species have consciousness at all..

  Nope. We are not the only species to perceive evil, justice, and morality. Other species certainly do have codes of conduct as well. Wild Justice: The Moral Lives of Animals by Marc Bekoff and Jessica Pierce is a good book to read on the topic. Marc Bekoff is a Professor of ecology and evolutionary biology, and Jessica Pierce is a bioethicist and a philosopher.

  The book is only 200 pages long, but it contains a lot of information; for instance, it cites experiments done by other scientists, so you can look those up as well.

  When it comes to consciousness, it still remains one of the great mysteries of science. We don't know what it is and what causes it, but in the Middle Ages, we also didn't know that the earth revolves around the sun, not the other way around. Sooner or later, we will find out. The unknown is not a reason to believe in a divine entity.
• 

  never a jw

  Catholicism is the only system that have logical internal consistency

  I am speechless
  
• 

  John_Mann

  It's not an ordinary unknown. It's simply the most amazing thing we have. Not to say that's the very thing we identify as ourselves.

  And this thing also indicates the possibility of God.

  If evolution is the cause of our consciousness why it would create something totally unreal like the idea of God? The idea of God is the most pursued idea in human history as we still are talking about it now. Evolution "hates" waste, so why bring such enormous waste of energy in an unreal idea?
• 

  Spoletta

  I watch nature videos of animals playing and enjoying themselves (otters sliding down snowy embankments, elephants eating fermented fruit) and believe that they're conscious of having a good time. It's not always a struggle for survival .
• 

  Saename

  John_Mann - If evolution is the cause of our consciousness why it would create something totally unreal like the idea of God? The idea of God is the most pursued idea in human history as we still are talking about it now. Evolution "hates" waste, so why bring such enormous waste of energy in an unreal idea?
  

  Your argument is flawed. You're saying that god must be real because evolution created our consciousness, which in turn created the idea of god. But because there is no reason for evolution to create something unreal, god must be real.

  Firstly, the concept of god is not the product of evolution. Evolution "created" brains. Then humans created the concept of god, using their brains, in order to explain why and how they exist. It wasn't the evolution; it was us.

  Secondly, evolution does not have intelligence. It can't create anything per se. Evolution is the process by which living organisms adapt to new environmental factors. Hence, the whole question "Why would evolution create something totally unreal like the idea of God?" is completely nonsensical. (Which is why evolution is also not responsible for what we do with our brains—see point #1 again.)

  Thirdly, have you not heard of vestigial organs? Humans, and other species, have organs that we don't use. That don't do anything.

  Fourthly, humans believe unreal things all the time—things other than god. One of the most important examples one can give is Scientology (since I don't think you're a Scientologist.)
• 

  cofty

  John_Mann it's almost as if you commented without having first read the OP. You wouldn't do that would you?

  If I'm wrong about that then it's puzzling why you are attacking a position that is the exact opposite of the one I presented.

  The point of my OP is to present evidence that "absolute morality" is a myth invented by theists in pursuit of moral certainty.

  Rejecting absolute morality does not reduce our moral decisions to subjective personal preferences. Secular morals are based on objective facts about the well-being of conscious creatures.

  You have already been corrected about your misguided opinions regarding ethology. You really need to get up to speed about that.

  Around half of our genes are expressed in our brains. We have evolved complex means of living in social groups including a faculty for disgust, jealousy, reciprocity, anger, revenge and guilt. Survival is not just about being big and mean. In our species being "fit" involves an advanced ability to cooperate. This requires a brain that feels empathy, that can see the world through the eyes of another. We know from brain scans and from individuals who have suffered injury exactly what parts of the brain are involved in these functions.

  You have yet to address the OP. Your work is all ahead of you.
• 

  cofty

  Interesting almost every (neo) atheist arguments always deals with the Sola Scriptura approach. Atheists quote Bible just like the Protestants - John_Mann

  If you bothered to read the OP you will notice that I argue from nature and human nature.
  
  
• 

  Saename

  cofty - We know from brain scans and from individuals who have suffered injury exactly what parts of the brain are involved in these functions.
  

  It's also worth mentioning that we already have scanned the brains of psychopaths using MRI. These scans show exactly what brain abnormalities psychopaths have. It was found that psychopaths had significantly reduced grey matter volumes in the anterior rostral prefrontal cortex and temporal poles compared to healthy individuals.
• 

  John_Mann

  Your argument is flawed. You're saying that god must be real because evolution created our consciousness, which in turn created the idea of god. But because there is no reason for evolution to create something unreal, god must be real.

  No, no, no. I'm buying your argument. God exists only as an idea created by a mind produced by evolutionary algorithm.

  The idea of God exists.

  And this idea is very significant in human history.

  Why evolution would bring so much waste in a particular unreal idea?

  The idea of an unicorn brought no signicancy to human history. Why?

  What's the evolutionary explanation regarding the differences between two unreal ideas?