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by Farkel 23 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    Rohl is involved with many organizations such as the Institute for the Study of Interdisciplinary Sciences or ISIS, for which he is the Chairman. He is also the Archaeology Correspondent for The Express newspaper and President of the Sussex Egyptology Society. He has recently been appointed Field Director of The Dead Sea Underwater Survey Expedition and serves as a guide for Ancient World Tours where he personally takes travelers on a tour of Egypt. Along with articles that he has published in The Express, he has also published numerous papers and has been the Editor of The Journal of the Ancient Chronology Forum since 1986. Rohl is currently working on an upcoming television special. Rohl and his Legend Film Production colleagues have recently returned from Iran, where they recorded over fifteen hours of film footage from their expeditions. This film is due to air in the U.K. some time in 2001.

    Click here for information about David Rohl's book "Pharaohs and Kings".

    What motivates him? He is interested in the search for historical truth -- without the sustaining support of any particular religious belief. What triggered off his quest to find a more promising synthesis between archaeology and the historical kernel of the stories contained in the Bible? More than twenty years' personal inquiry. (pg 8)

    When he looked at Kitchen's assembled jigsaw in detail he began to find pieces which simply did not fit together (other researchers were coming to similar conclusions). He also discovered a number of fundamental assumptions about the structure of Professor Kenneth Kitchen's "The Third Intermediate Period in Egypt" (TIP) which, in David's view, were not based on sound historical methods. (pg 10)

    He has not exactly been dragged out of his cozy Egyptological existence kicking and screaming, but the reader should be aware that he did not originally set out to challenge our current understanding of the Old Testament narratives. This has come about simply because of the need to explore the ramifications of his TIP research. He has no religious axe to grind -- he is simply an historian in search of some historical truth. (pg 11)

    Passages concerning Joseph


    David Rohl deals extensively with Joseph and evens believes that we have discovered Joseph's residence and tomb in

    Coat of many colors

    It was common at the time of Joseph to wear a "coat of many colors". There is archaeological evidence for Midianite traders and that they wore coats like this.

    From the Bible

    From Archaeology Page numbers from "Pharaohs and Kings" by David Rohl

    Now loved Joseph more than any of his other sons, because he had been born to him in his old age; and he made a richly ornamented robe for him. (Gen 37:3)

    So when the Midianite merchants came by, his brothers pulled Joseph up out of the cistern and sold him for twenty shekels of silver to the Ishmaelites, who took him to Egypt. (Gen 37:28)

    There is a rock-cut tomb in middle that dates from just before the time of Joseph. On the interior wall there is painted a scene of Asiatics entering carrying goods to sell to the Egyptians. There is text accompanying the scene. They wear colorful striped garments which numerous commentators have likened to Joseph's 'coat of many colors'. These were Midianite caravaneers like the ones who brought Joseph into . (pg 359-360)

    There is a twice-life-size statue (probably of Joseph himself) found in his tomb in which he is wearing a coat of many colors. (pg 366)

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    Joseph's administrative programs

    From the Bible

    From Archaeology Page numbers from "Pharaohs and Kings" by David Rohl

    They should collect all the food of these good years that are coming and store up the grain under the authority of Pharaoh, to be kept in the cities for food. This food should be held in reserve for the country, to be used during the seven years of famine that will come upon , so that the country may not be ruined by the famine." (Gen 41:35-36)

    There is evidence of Amenemhat III's preparation for the floods. (pg 343)

    There is a building with 3,000 chambers. (pg 344)

    And now let Pharaoh look for a discerning and wise man and put him in charge of the . Let Pharaoh appoint commissioners over the land to take a fifth of the harvest of during the seven years of abundance. (Gen 41:33-34)

    Three regional departments were set up to oversee the agricultural labor, conscript labor and the storage of grain supplies for redistribution to the Egyptian population during periods of famine. (pg 348)

    Avaris [in
    ] is the site of one of the 3 regional departments. (pg 356)

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    The 7 year famine

    From the Bible

    From Archaeology Page numbers from "Pharaohs and Kings" by David Rohl

    The seven years of abundance in came to an end, and the seven years of famine began, just as Joseph had said. . . . (Gen 41:53-54)

    Let Pharaoh appoint commissioners over the land to take a fifth of the harvest of
    during the seven years of abundance. (Gen 41:34)

    The is archaeological evidence for a famine preceded by bumper harvests at the time of Joseph. (pg 335)

    For 60 years starting with King Amenemhat III the Egyptians monitored the level of the
    inundation near the 2nd cataract (rapids). (pg 335)

    What was different about the inundations to require that they should be so closely monitored? There was a very drastic rise in the
    flood levels in the reign of Amenemhat III. (pg 337-338)

    In Amenemhat's 12th year the flood levels rise 27 feet above the 'good' flood level. There would be 3-4 times the volume of water which would have led to famine. The water would wash away villages, break down dikes and causeways and take longer to subside so the fields can't be made ready for planting season. (pg 340)

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    Pharaoh gains control of Egypt

    From the Bible

    From Archaeology Page numbers from "Pharaohs and Kings" by David Rohl

    So Joseph bought all the land in for Pharaoh. The Egyptians, one and all, sold their fields, because the famine was too severe for them. The land became Pharaoh's, and Joseph reduced the people to servitude, from one end of to the other. (Gen 47:20-21)

    "You have saved our lives," they said. "May we find favor in the eyes of our lord; we will be in bondage to Pharaoh." (Gen 47:25)

    The local chieftains found their own grain silos exhausted and were forced to sell their land holdings to the Pharaoh. The power of the governors of was broken and Pharaoh became the sole authority in -- the evidence for this is that the grand tombs of the governors of ceased to be built. This signals the diminution of the authority of a semi-independent nobility and the return of political control to the kingship. (pg 342)

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    Joseph's home in Goshen

    From the Bible

    From Archaeology Page numbers from "Pharaohs and Kings" by David Rohl

    So Joseph settled his father and his brothers in and gave them property in the best part of the land, the district of Rameses, as Pharaoh directed. (Gen 47:11)

    Archaeologists have found the residence of Jacob built and planned in the tradition of his original homeland. The tombs located in the garden contained Asiatic grave goods confirming that the occupants originated in the . It is dated to the time of Jacob's arrival in . (pg 355-356)

    Joseph stayed in , along with all his father's family. He lived a hundred and ten years. (Gen 50:22 )

    Joseph had a large Egyptian-style palace in and it was likely the focal point of Israelite settlement. It clearly belonged to a very important official. This is built directly over Jacob's dwelling and can be ascribed to the period following the death of Jacob when Joseph was of mature years (perhaps about 50) and, no doubt, occupied with the administration of his own large estate bequeathed to him by the grateful Pharaohs. (pg 354-356)

    There are twin suites (for Manasseh & Ephraim and families) attached. (pg 356)

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    Joseph's tomb and removal of the coffin

    From the Bible

    From Archaeology Page numbers from "Pharaohs and Kings" by David Rohl

    So Joseph died at the age of a hundred and ten. And after they embalmed him, he was placed in a coffin in . (Gen 50:26)

    Joseph's palace had a garden tomb. (pg 358)

    Joseph was buried in a coffin within his own tomb. It is the largest sepulchre found at Avaris [in
    ]. (pg 361)

    Moses took the bones of Joseph with him because Joseph had made the sons of swear an oath. He had said, "God will surely come to your aid, and then you must carry my bones up with you from this place." (Exo 13:19)

    The body was removed but without signs of the grave having been plundered. (pg 361)

    There was a careful clearance of the vault rather than the usual ransacking. This reopening of the tomb took place while the chapel was still in use. Moses extracted Joseph's remains to take them to the promised land. (pg 363)

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    Statue of Joseph

    From the Bible

    From Archaeology Page numbers from "Pharaohs and Kings" by David Rohl

    So Pharaoh sent for Joseph, and he was quickly brought from the dungeon. When he had shaved and changed his clothes, he came before Pharaoh. (Gen 41:14)

    There is a twice-life-size statue in Joseph's tomb. The statue is clean shaven instead of the usual beard of the Asiatics. (pg 363)

    After the Exodus, some vengeful individuals attempted to destroy the statue. The nose was smashed off. The eyes were gouged out. There are blows visible on the top of the head. It is not hard to imagine the men of the town descending upon the tomb of Joseph so as to vent their wrath in memory of the disaster that caused Pharaoh to let the Israelites go. (pg 364)
  • one
    one

    'interesting', no comments

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    jgnat:

    I must allow my preconceptions to be rocked.

    Okay then. Prove that the Creation account in the Bible and other prehistorical events in Genesis, such as the Flood, are factual.

    Because if you don't do that, it may be you are basing everything on the preconception, or presupposition, that the Bible is inspired of god and accurate in such things.

  • JCanon
    JCanon

    Can anyone prove creation?

    Lots of things can't be PROVEN by scientific method, such as whether or not I walked across a paved road. Does that mean it didn't happen?

    I think the believers continue to believe, not because there is no found or reported "evidence" of some of the things in the Bible, but because there is yet nothing that disproves conclusively what they believe in.

    Did the Israelites trek for 40 years in the wilderness? No evidence? Maybe they were a clean people and cleaned up before they left!

    Proof so is not absolute proof not..

    JCanon

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    one: You mention the flood.

    There is pretty convincing proof there were trees standing before during and after the flood; do a search on bristlecone pines. This proves either there was no flood or that it was not global. I chose this as the dating is by counting tree rings and pretty hard to fault; there's a thread about it http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/49871/1.ashx

    As for the sea animals found in high mountains, this is jusy null scienece JW style. These fossils are dated to millions of years before present and were indeed sea creatures et. al., who died and whose remains were fossilised in sedimentary rock. They are at high altitude now due to geological uplift.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Jcannon

    Can anyone prove creation?

    No.

    Lots of things can't be PROVEN by scientific method, such as whether or not I walked across a paved road. Does that mean it didn't happen?

    Sorry, but your example is false. It could be proved by scientific methods that you had walked across a road, depending on the time interval and weather. A dog could be given a sample of your clothing and track you. The fact it would be able to go to places where you had been when tracking your scent, and would not go those places when given another scent to track would be proof that the "instrument" used to detect you crossing the road was reliable. Other methods could be used, depending on the previously mentioned factors of time and weather.

    I think the believers continue to believe, not because there is no found or reported "evidence" of some of the things in the Bible, but because there is yet nothing that disproves conclusively what they believe in.

    Nothing disproves that a god did not guide or instigate creation. Nothing disproves that a bunny rabbit, or Santa, or Batman did not guide or instigate creation. Even if one is willing to accept without proof that a god did guide or instigate creation, you cannot prove which god, as there are competing claims, none of which are distinguishable from each other in scientific terms.

    If people are willing to make a guess about an assumption or chance of birth and base their life on it, good for them.

    However, what you have to be clear on is that there is strong proof against all creation myths or all religions, including the Bible. This is a very important point. It proves that Holy Books are not infallible, and as Holy Books have had a tendancy in the past to be used as pretexts to claim that one side is absolutely right and the other is wrong PURELY BASED ON THE CONTENTS OF THESE BOOKS, scientific proof that no Holy Book is inspired of any god means people can believe in the way they sit fit, and not risk have someone come along and harm them for not conforming to a unprovable set of beliefs.

    Did the Israelites trek for 40 years in the wilderness? No evidence? Maybe they were a clean people and cleaned up before they left!

    I assume the exlaimation mark indicates you are not serious. If that argument is serious, multiply the assumed number of people in the group by the weight of the average daily bowel movement by the number of nights that Farkel mentioned and you will see exactly how bad the 'leaves no trace' arguement smells.

    Not one camp site. Not one midden. Not on trench toilet. No sign of lost impedimetia, the things and bits of every day life that get left behind without notice, at least not on the scale one would expect.

    Proof so is not absolute proof not..

    So if I can prove I am sat at my desk in Boxtel, The Netherlands, at 10.53am local time, this is not absoloute proof that I am elsewhere? Is that what you mean? Your use of the double negative means that you could mean the reverse of what I think you mean.. Please restate that last sentence.

    If you are saying there is no proof that there is no god and that god may have created the world in some way, fine. If you are saying that god created the world thus and so and therefore it is good to do this and bad to do that, then you need to prove the thus and so to make the "good to do this and bad to do that" anything other than something someone wrote down somewhere sometime that is as true or untrue depending on what it is as what I am now writing.

  • Dansk
    Dansk
    Much of the Hebrew Scriptures is a dispassionate account of Israel’s history

    Nonsense! It's an Egyptian history. The Jews nicked it.

    Dansk

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Question, Farkel; do you think that EVERYONE who leaves the WTS should believe like you,

    Answer, Obviously, not. But I DO think that everyone who cares should have access to the information that is available. Those who wish to not deal with it will at least have had a chance to see it. This kind of information is not available to those who are still JWs unless they want to get in trouble by seeing it.

    Response, Fair enough. I do appreciate that you provide a great deal of valuable information. You make people think. I like that about you.

    Question, :...and should leave for the same reasons you did

    Answer, People leave for the reasons people leave. I wonder if you even know what made me leave 33 years ago. Do you? Do you REALLY know?

    Response, I do not know the reason you left. I do not presume to know. I chose to share information to help fence-sitting JW’s consider that they can leave the society and retain their faith in God. For some, that may be all it takes for them to take the leap (having falsely assumed there is no God on the “outside”). For some, the betrayal runs too deep, and they turn away from any belief in God or religion. I think I understand that.

    Abbadon

    , you presume too much about me. I can use parts of the bible as a guide for living, but I do not claim it is factual in all respects. I do not think I have to do that to use it as a moral guide. I think the JW’s get in to a great deal of trouble by trying to get the world to fit in to a literal interpretation of the bible. There are fossils in the Rockies. That is fact.

    Dansk

    - does that mean the Jews were the first successful Publishers in history? By sheer volume and persistence, their literature wins.
  • Farkel
    Farkel

    : Did the Israelites trek for 40 years in the wilderness? No evidence? Maybe they were a clean people and cleaned up before they left!

    Talk about grasping for straws! The Bible (or at least the WTS) claims their were about 600,000 of them camping out every night, and ALL but 2 of them died during that 40 years. That means there are 599,998 human remains out there in that little desert, together with the remains of untold amounts of cattle, shards or pottery, but most importantly, POOP! 600,000 people and their animals leave a LOT of poop, and in that warm and dry climate poop turns into mummified poop. Guess what? No poop! Imagine a single night encampment of 600,000 people. Just imagine that number of people EACH night for thousands and thousands of nights in a different place each day they wandered. Don't you think SOME evidence of even ONE of those thousands and thousands of nights would have been discovered that would have proved those ancient Jews wandered as the Bible said they wandered. NO! There is NO evidence. It's all bullshit and myth made up by latter-day Jewish leaders to make the Jews into some sort of mythical religion. It's all bullshit. But it is no more bullshit than the Watchtower's mythical claim to religious authority. People make up stuff, and then find idiots to believe the stuff they made up.

    Farkel

  • anglise
    anglise

    Hi Farkel

    yet another good point bought down to practical terms.

    This also lends itself to disprove the noah's ark fable. 7 people couldnt shovel quick enough!!

    Reminds me of a "Vicar of Dibley" scene where farmer Owens cows "had the squits".

    Anglise

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