I told her... Results: unexpected. (page 2)

OneEyedJoe

But, her parents, although "uber" dubs, need-greaters, are also very balanced and not at all dogmatic.
Her dad is one of the best guys to have a beer with and talk about how retarded that "tightpants" talk was.

Sometimes those can be the hardest to make see reason - they're not affected by the dogmatism so they dismiss it. They have no real integrity and feel no need to stand up when they see hypocrisy (like the tightpants talk where AMIII made a bunch of rules only a couple weeks after the book study bit about how the pharisees burdened the jews with a bunch of unscriptural rules.) My wife somewhat falls into this category - anytime I make a point about some bit of doctrine and how it could have negatively affected people, she says something like "Oh, well I never really cared that much about that anyway" and just assumes that no one else did either.

Family and friends are powerful influences and sometimes a more emotional conversation can make someone crawl back into the Organization just out of fear of losing something.

This is good advice. Cults don't control people through logic and reason, they do it through emotion. Your wife may see the logical problems, but she could still be held in by emotion, or may rat you out if placed in an emotional circumstance.

Do you do "family worship" or anything like that? I wish I did before I woke up, because that's a great vehicle for talking about anti-JW things and getting your backing straight from scripture so you can't be argued with, all under the guise of being a great spiritual head for your family. You might use the example of the isrealites when they followed the instructions of rebellious kings. Isreal was "god's organization" of the day, and the King it's leader - but the isrealites themselves where held personally accountable for what they did and if they supported an evil king they paid the price too. If they went along with the king (perhaps, waiting on jehovah) they usually died because of it.

millie210

SO happy for you Capn,

I was reading your story and your wifes comments and it made me think that just quite possibly there is a new ?breed" of Witness. The ones who are just going along with the parts they like but feel no real inner devotion to or attachment to "the mother ship".

Could it just possibly be that some people are starting to view Jehovah and the ORG as not one and the same?

Regardless, you struck a blow and it was a good one!

stan livedeath

well capn---maybe your wife has been a lurker on here for a while--?

and--who knows---maybe her father is too ?

cappytan

Could it just possibly be that some people are starting to view Jehovah and the ORG as not one and the same?

I was just thinking this the other day.

I feel the new converts seem to be the most fanatical. There are some born ins that are fanatical too (my mom is one of them), but many that I know that are under 40 seem to be more "balanced." They seem to just be maintaining the status quo instead of being straight-laced, black-and-white JWs.

I'm in a circle of friends that I would NEVER bring up the 587 vs. 607 thing. But, all of us do criticize the Pharisaical issues that are coming up more frequently. I mean, that tight pants talk was talked about extensively, and not as a positive thing.

Our circuit also recently had a C.O. that actually said from the platform that sisters shouldn't be wearing sandals in service...only closed-toe shoes. His reasoning? Because the house-holder might have a foot fetish.

And that they should also wear hose in service and on the platform. And that brothers shouldn't wear cowboy boots in service. (Down here, brothers wear cowboy boots on the stage!)

This same C.O. also said that because the time slips are the only organizationally approved method for turning in time, that we should not be using e-mail or text messages for turning it in.

My circle of friends feels free to talk about the ridiculousness of all of this. Obviously, if someone were to say that this is troubling and maybe it isn't the truth, there'd be a freak out. But it is nice to be able to speak freely about the fact we all feel the rule-making isn't okay.

campaign of hate

Well done! congratulations. Looks like your wife is a keeper!

My advice. Tread very carefully. It doesn't take much for someone to go back into full cult mode, be it a manipulative talk by a manipulative speaker, or some emotional stuff at an assembly.

OneEyedJoe

My circle of friends feels free to talk about the ridiculousness of all of this. Obviously, if someone were to say that this is troubling and maybe it isn't the truth, there'd be a freak out. But it is nice to be able to speak freely about the fact we all feel the rule-making isn't okay.

It's this sort of thing that I have trouble dealing with. They'll all talk about how stupid everything is and how they know that the unscriptural rules are wrong, but if anyone decides to make a stand and say, for example, that the organization is bloodguilty due to the flip-flop on organ transplants, they'd all immediately shun that person. The hypocrisy is astounding (and I say this as a reformed hypocrite) and really harms so many and has ended many lives, but it's hypocrisy that allows people to stay in the organization at all.

I don't think these people are going to be any easier to get to wake up than the hard-core nazi JWs. These people are comfortable and don't feel any need to change. At least the hard-core old-school ones will discuss doctrine and you could potentially prove them wrong, but the wishy-washy ones will just dismiss anything and stick to the normal talking points - we preach, we use the (made up) name jehovah, etc.

leaving_quietly

I think you're wife's reaction is unusual among JWs. Good, but unusual. When I opened up to my wife, she told me in no uncertain terms that her loyalty was to the organization, that she would choose the organization over me. Yes, she said, "the organization." Of course, I never gave her reason to make a choice. I didn't say: 'you must choose...' But in her mind, me saying that I don't agree with all the teachings is exactly that, forcing her to make a choice. So, you're fortunate you can have an open discussion with your wife. I cannot, and it's eating me up inside.

cappytan

I didn't mention this above, but when she said what she did about loyalty belonging to Jehovah, I couldn't help but think about the apostles telling the jewish religious leaders, "We must obey God as ruler, rather than men."

At the moment, I still respect the scriptures and feel that living according to Jesus philosophy stated on the Sermon on the Mount can be beneficial and bring a sense of happiness and bring one in harmony with his neighbors. My brain is wired for searching for "Truth," and who knows, someday that search for "Truth" may lead elsewhere.

At the moment, however, my litmus test for "Truth" is still: "Does it harmonize with the scriptures?" When the answer is No, I "must obey God as ruler, rather than men!"

I have a very conflicted brain at the moment. I have woken up when it comes to the organization. I've woken up and accepted the fact that blind loyalty to these men is unscriptural. I'm still struggling with the deeply ingrained thought paths of relying on the scriptures and belief in God.

My mind is at war with itself. Logic on the one side, Hope that there's something more on the other. Reason has won out when it comes to the organization.

My mind is still battling it out over the other things.

Ray Franz book is perfect for those who still respect the scriptures. His book is very comforting to me, because it showed me that you can still be a free thinker and have faith in God, Jesus and the scriptures after leaving.

I have made up my mind on one thing: if I ever actually physically leave the organization, I will never belong to another organized religion even if I still believe in God and the scriptures.

I'm kind of euphoric right now, because I know I'm evolving as a person. And I'm okay with it.

freemindfade

I'd still be prepared for her to do something. I went through something similar, and wanted it to be private in order for me to be open and honest, when I was just starting to free myself mentally. Like doubts I had just from a bible perspective, I still had not done research for TTATT on the googles... long story short... I felt she allowed me to confide and trussed that this was between us... next thing I know when the CO was in town, him and an elder I respected were at my house asking me about my doubts and that she had told them. I felt utterly betrayed and that was the worst thing she could have done. Since though, the further I fade it comes with growing pains between us, but she is also more accepting along the way, i try no to throw big TTATT issues in her face because that results in hostility and shutting down, but even just sharing intellectual conversations from time to time is ok, usually still turns into cult hostility. When I had determined for myself this was not the "truth", i still never would have said dubs were a cult, but the more I stepped away i now see it as what it is 100% high control cult.

leaving_quietly

Here's what happened to me when learning TTATT. Just preparing you for what may come for you:

1. Cognitive dissonance - learning that things that you believed deeply are not all true.

2. Could it really be? - The verification process. Claims made by others you must verify for yourself. This means LOTS of research. But, in my experience, when you never had time for it before, you actually make time for it now. It becomes almost a compulsion, an obsession. You have to re-prove "the truth" to yourself, and when you find out you can't, then...

3. Anger, dismay

4. Wanting to tell your closest associates (but can't because you'd be outed, though you're fortunate you can talk to your wife)

5. Dreams (oh, the dreams... they get really strange)

6. Then you think... oh, wait... I'm leaving out the most important thing... prayer! So you pray. Hard. Like never before.

7. You're mentally left in a kind of in-between state (between being a JW and not being one). At meetings, you quickly pick up on the wrong teachings. You quickly see misapplication of scriptures. You quickly recognize everything wrong. And it becomes really hard to hide your reaction.

8. At some point, acceptance. You accept that JWs are wrong. You accept JWs do not have "the truth". You keep up appearances for friends and family sake, but you know deeply that this cannot continue for the rest of your life, so you start planning your fade or other exit strategy.

I'm at #8. Fading is not an option for me. I will have to quit abruptly.

People leave for different reasons. Some because of how they were treated by elders. Some over the blood issue. Some over policies on child abuse. For me it is over teachings and Pharisaic attitudes encouraged organizationally.

I told her... Results: unexpected.

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