"Apostates " how honest are we?
It's not clear in the OP how many 'apostates' you know. It seems like you've drawn conclusions from data given by a small sample size.
All the posters on this forum I've chatted to/locked horns with are what you might call 'apostates' and they all seem to have honest opinions on a variety of subjects.
Ok, that may not be conclusive but that's the impression I have ...
P.S. I agree with Punk's & Cognac's posts on page 1.
The second example is the classic "apostate" example. While the third example can evolve into other forms that are not Godly such as atheism. Once this happens they will turn on God and start to berate Biblical teachings even lying about Scripture. _ Tenacious
I find the best way to discredit the bible is to be totally honest about everything it says and to make sure you always quote it in context.
As to your experience you have to put things in perspective. The bible doesn't support tribunals. in fact Judicial matters should be in the public forum to begin with. Disputes in Israel were handled at the city gate. The were done in public so the judges would act fairly and be held accountable.
In what way is that mimic'd in the organization today. It's NOT! In fact it is the polar opposite. Elders are not held accountable.
For many the mere thought of a judicial trial (let's not soften it, it's a trial) puts them on the defensive. In fact the scriptures often read before there's any discussion are accusatory and put the person in a tough spot as they feel guilty before they begin.
There's not much with this process that is loving or transparent. It is setup in such a way that the only one held accountable is the accused.
So although you might have had some experiences where someone has been dishonest, is not the entire concept and practice of judicial trials dishonest?
Pot calling the kettle black.
As to people in general some are good some are bad. There are plenty bad in the organization they just tow the line so as not to be cast out. People are what they are unfortunately.
For the record, I never tell lies.
And don't forget that some break those rules deliberately to get DF, and to piss you off.
Lying to Elders is one of the most satisfying aspects, twisting them about like the fools they are for putting themselves in that position of being a Self righteous judge over others.
Because you haven't been in that position means you cannot understand them.
Jehovah's Witness Elders are Black / White, there is no shades of grey.
I know one friend whom went around and screwed ever Elders daughter just to have satisfaction - he got them all too!.
When you are slapped people will slap you back with what ever they have at hand.
Since these lies were published in the news paper and most all news papers are on-line now, would you mind posting a link to the story that you referred to in the OP?
I am sure that "Closed" is making a valid and honest point... about the cases he knows . When reading experiences of the extreme things that elders are reported to have said, I too hold my judgement , wondering if the person is being entirely honest or at least seeing only their own point of view....In the instance of a wife and ex husband , we all know that divorcees usually see themselves as the grieved party, that is human nature.
That does not take anything away from the mountain of evidence of harsh treatment handed out by this organization that is a well attested fact ,and I have cringed sometimes at things my then fellow elders said - so I don't discount them all either.
Incidentally, on the topic of ex elders responsibility, I have to admit that I was indeed part of that system. I d/f'd people, sitting in judgement and causing grief to families. I am sorry now. At the time we really believed we were doing the right thing, discharging our duty and applying Bible law. We were all, elder or not, a part of that Organization and accepting it's rules .
Thank God I can see sense now
I totally agree with people who say that elders don't deserve the truth in a JC. Right on! But as far as I can see closed wasn't complaining about that. He said the woman lied to her husband and to the media, not about lying to the JC, which seem reasonable complaints if true.
So many great comments @closed.
Slimboyfat, finkel and bluesbro - excellent points.
I fail to see your point
Cognac was right - nunya business to begin with.
What these people decided to relate concerning their own experience at their own JC again - nunya business.
People can witness the same event and remember things differently. Happens all the time.
Have you been on the other side of a JC ? Fear can play a factor in how you remember things.
I could go on, but my point is that there seems to be so much here you have failed to consider.
I am more honest with myself now than I ever was as a myopic Jw.