What The Fossils Say

by cofty 78 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • cofty
    cofty
    However, It is quite common to get "fossils" containing original organic material...like this "160 million" year old squid ink. They even used some of it to write with a pen - Sea Breeze

    Please read the article you linked to. Nobody used 160 million year old squid ink to write anything. Researchers used a combination of very sophisticated techniques to determine if melanin was present.

    Other soft tissue discoveries in fossils have been similarly challenging to confirm using very high resolution microscopes to identify collagen and red blood cells. The idea put about by creationists that rotting flesh and oozing blood was found inside fossils is risible.

    You can read a very detailed explanation written by an evangelical christian at the Letters to Creationists blog.

  • cofty
    cofty
    The creationists own the fossil record. The Cambrian explosion of life showing fully formed animals is opposite of what Darwinism predicts - See Breeze

    The fossil record contains an embarrassment of riches proving common ancestry beyond all doubt. Of particular interest is the many hominid fossils showing the ancestry of modern humans.

    The Cambrian 'explosion' is an interesting period in the history of life. We now know that it lasted about 25 million years - that's quite a slow explosion. There is a fantastic series of articles at the Biologos website that answers all the questions a creationist might have in connection with this so-called challenge to evolution.

  • cofty
    cofty
    1 - Getting Something from Nothing.

    So how on earth did you make the leap from biological evolution to denying the Big Bang?

    All the evidence proves common ancestry is a fact. A whole other field of science proves the Big Bang really happened 13.8 billion years ago - you can still detect it for goodness sake! But these are two very different subjects. Do you just hate science in general?

    2 - Getting Life from Non-Life.

    The transition from geochemistry to biochemistry is a field of science known as abiogenesis. Evolution deals with the subsequent branching of species.

    Life almost certainly originated in deep sea alkaline vents. The key to life is energy. In the words of Nobel Prize winner Albert Szent-Györgyi “Life is nothing but an electron looking for a place to rest”

    For a fascinating explanation of the latest developments in this field see Nick Lane's Life Ascending

    3 - Getting Order from Chaos.

    According to the laws of thermodynamics entropy does tend towards maximum. However local decreases in entropy are everywhere. Pull the plug out of the bathtub and watch the vortex form out of a chaotic and unguided flow of water. Physicists like Jeremy England are studying how life actually speeds up entropy by consuming energy making life as likely as a rock rolling down a hill.

    4 - Getting the Immaterial from Physical Matter.

    Morality is easy, the problem of consciousness on the other hand is a puzzle. There is a whole spectrum of conscious experience in the animal kingdom with the human mind at the apex. We know it is a product of our brains, that much is obvious, but what is the specific development that sets us apart? There are some really interesting proposed solutions that I have looked at but I have to admit it isn't my area of interest.

    However it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact of biological evolution.

    5 - Complex Information generation

    This is a common fallacy. DNA is a sequence of chemical bases that catalyse amino acids that fold together to form proteins. 'Information' is a metaphor. If there is a god who wanted to put information in DNA why didn't he put any information in DNA?

    Our genomes are an absolute mess. If anything proves there was no intelligent designer it is our genome.

    Anyway this topic is paleontology.

    Now you can go ahead and copy-paste some more nonsense from another creationist website that you don't understand.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Debating a creationist is like accepting the following challenge.

    First your interlocutor gets ten minutes to smash up your house with a baseball bat. Then you get ten minutes to put everything back as it was before. If you fail they claim victory.

  • Earnest
    Earnest

    cofty, I was most interested to read the Letters to Creationists Blog to which you referred. Regardless of the scientific arguments, I thought his reference to Augustine (On Genesis, Book I, Chapter 19) worth repeating :

    Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the Earth, the Heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience.

    If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about [Genesis], how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason?

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    Whales are the best evidence? I found this list of problems with that assessment:


    * RSR's List of Whale Evolution Problems: In the tradition of the beloved RSR List Shows, we hope the following will be helpful to you as a comprehensive yet succinct resource. (For the documentation, see Dr. Werner's videos and books and please email [email protected] your suggestions for other items to include.):
    - Whales and bats share unique DNA sequences in 200 genes yet without a similar common ancestor
    - The evolutionary tree based on the gene Prestin shows bats and whales "together rather than with their... evolutionary cousins"


    - Ten thousand paleontologists over 150 years failed to discover whale transitions

    Two guys in a few decades discovered Ambulocetus, Rodhocetus, Pakicetus, Sinonyx and more (see below)


    - The teacher Dr. Philip Gingerich became famous for discovering Rodhocetus, Pakicetus, and other whale transitions


    - The student of Gingerich, Dr. Hans Thewissen, became famous for discovering Ambulocetus
    - Without limb or tail bones to justify his imagination, Gingerich drew flippers and a fluked tail onto Rodhocetus



    - San Diego State's whale evolution expert Dr. Berta: "Rodhocetus [used] its fluked tail for propulsion through water..."


    - Gingerich admits on film to Dr. Carl Werner that additional fossils show Rodhocetus had four legs
    - Lacking evidence and left with only contrary evidence, Gingerich now believes that Rodhocetus did not have a fluked tail


    - Major museums begin to pull the famed Rodhocetus from their whale evolution displays


    - Werner-aware articles like at Wikipedia either omit Rodhocetus or downgrade it to just one of the Protocetids



    - Smaller-staffed sites like Francis Collins' BioLogos continue to showcase the completely misconstrued Rodhocetus



    - Gingerich reconstructed a Pakicetus skull from fragments but now admits there was no indication of a blowhole


    - After more bones were excavated, Pakicetus became a land animal but still kept its place as a whale transitional form


    - Listing nine whale features, Thewissen, et al. conclude in Nature, "Pakicetids display none of these [whale] features"


    - Since Gingerich and Thewissen, whales are now widely claimed to be the best fossil evidence for Darwinian evolution


    - Real Science Radio often hears evolutionists, like AronRa, use Rodhocetus and Pakicetus as evidence for evolution


    - Berkeley's Whale Evolution article says: "These first whales, such as Pakicetus, were typical land animals."


    - Leading evolutionists focusing on teeth, ear bones, ankles, mouth, or genes thus argue for a different land ancestor


    - Since 1998, leading institutions argue whether whales evolved from animals like hyenas, cats, deer, wolves, or hippos


    - Darwin focused on the wide-open mouth and predator behavior to claim that whales evolved from bears


    - Dr. Gingerich explains that what "is similar between hoofed hyenas and the archaic whales are the teeth."

    - Tokyo Institute of Sciences focused on genome similarity and concludes that whales evolved from a hippo-like species

    The whale evolution saga pits geneticists against anatomists against paleontologists

    Neo-Darwinism claims that evolution happens in the genes, yet unlike whales, hippos have plant-eating teeth


    - Geneticist claims whales evolved from hippos but paleontologists say hippos evolved tens of millions of years too late


    - Howard University's whale fossil expert Prof. Daryl Domning: "this is nonsense... Hippos were very late on the scene"


    - The hippo/whale jam is one part of a system-wide pattern called Evolution's Big Squeeze



    - The water-deposited geologic column's flood-sorted fossils reveal no hippo bones lower than whale bones


    - If today's neo-Darwinian paradigm were true, then hippo gene similarity leaves zero fossil evidence for whale evolution


    - Gingerich's "problem" with hippos is that "they are all plant eaters; [but] whales today are all carnivores."


    - Science: "the teeth of... mesonychids, such resemblance is sometimes overstated and... represents ... convergence"


    - Though whales are among the "best" fossil evidence for evolution, experts disagree even on their land ancestor


    - Thewissen reconstructed Ambulocetus' skull with a blowhole where no skull fragments existed to justify it

    The world's leading museums display a full Ambulocetus skull as though it had been found, including with a blowhole


    - Smithsonian and other Darwinist artists added tiny ears reminiscent of whales without fossil evidence to support them


    - Whale eyes typically line up with the upper teeth so Gingerich doubts Ambulocetus because its eyes are atop its head


    - Thewissen admits in Werner's film that a major claim for Ambulocetus, a "sigmoid process" ear bone, is questionable


    - Whale evolution believer and expert Dr. Berta regarding Ambulocetus refers to its "purported whale characters"

    - The "sigmoid process" is "questionable" and only "purported" because it doesn't look like that diagnostic whale trait

    The other "purported" Ambulocetus "whale" features are consistent with land animals but not with whale features


    - Gingerich found Rodhocetus, Pakicetus, Synonyx and also Maiacetus ("mother whale") and Artiocetus!



    - So the dynamic duo found Rodhocetus, Ambulocetus, Pakicetus, Synonyx, Maiacetus, Artiocetus, and __________?


    - The whale evolution cottage industry is run like a family business with proprietors who cannot be trusted


    - The evolutionary lineage of the previously-believed-extinct pygmy whale is whatever researchers want it to be


    - Dr. Jerry Bergman presents anatomical evidence against the claimed whale vestiges of leg and pelvic bones


    - Timewise, whale "evolution" is being crushed in the industry-wide "big squeeze" as fossil finds continue to compress any time available for evolution. To not violate its own plot, the Darwinist story doesn't start animals evolving back into the sea until the cast includes land animals suitable to undertake the legendary journey. The recent excavation of whale fossils on an island of the Antarctic Peninsula further compresses the already absurdly fast 10 million years to allegedly evolve from the land back to the sea, down to as little as one million years, by this assessment based on various techniques that produced various published dates in 2016.

  • BluesBrother
    BluesBrother

    Debating Creation is a never ending topic and one that I am going to duck from , to be honest. I would say though that to criticise the writers of a 1985 “ Creation” book by holding it against findings of 21st century palaeontologist is a tad unfair.

    The book should be held against evolutionary writings of its own time... I believe that was done in years past.

  • cofty
    cofty
    Every creation book ever written by the cult is appallingly dishonest and scientifically ignorant by the standards of the times at which they were produced.
  • Vidiot
    Vidiot
    "...creationists own the fossil record..."

    That is hands down, without a doubt, the funniest goddamned thing I've read today.

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