"We ourselves are responsible for what happens to us, whether or not we can understand how. It follows that we can change what happens to us by changing ourselves; we can take our destiny into our own hands."
- Bhagavad Gita
Encouraging scriptures for the day
by Kosonen 543 Replies latest jw friends
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Queequeg
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Kosonen
It should be noted that of the 55 prophets listed in the Talmud, Daniel is not one of them, and the Biblical book of Daniel is not included in the Prophets section of the Jewish canon,
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Kosonen
But Jesus refered to the book of Daniel.
Matthew 24:15 “Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place (let the reader use discernment),
Daniel 9:27 “And he will keep the covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week, he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease. “And on the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, what was decided on will be poured out also on the one lying desolate.”
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KalebOutWest
After pointing out the following from my previous comment:
It should be noted that of the 55 prophets listed in the Talmud, Daniel is not one of them, and the Biblical book of Daniel is not included in the Prophets section of the Jewish canon,
Kosonen says:
But Jesus refered to the book of Daniel.
So? Jesus is not considered a prophet or the Messiah or an authority of any kind in Judaism either. And neither does the gospel of Matthew or any of the New Testament/Christian scriptures appear in the Jewish Bible canon.
So quoting Christian texts or the words of Jesus does not prove the Daniel was a real person or a prophet. The Jewish people wrote the texts and any people who author a text have a right to declare their meaning over any foreign people who cannot even read them in their original language without the use of a translation in the first place.
Here is a video created by a scholar who used to belong to the sister cult of Jehovah's Witnesses called the Worldwide Church of God that dissolved after it cult leader died in the mid 1980s. They had almost an exact view of the book of Daniel that the Watchtower has had (and has today). This man grew up in the WCG but when it's leader died (which was a sign Jesus was not going to return and usher the coming Paradise on earth), they realized it was a false religion and almost everyone left--and he went to college and got a real education (similar to my own story).
Here he explains the differences regarding prophecy and apocalypse regarding the books of Daniel and Revelation (with a few allusions to his past beliefs which are a little similar to Watchtower-isms):
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Kosonen
I don't understand your point refrencing jewish religious authorities?
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KalebOutWest
I am pointing to critical analysis and historical academia and its data, which is secular.
Authority, religious or otherwise, cannot help you, only the weight of critical evidence.
Religious dogma will likely cloud the matter as well.
And the Jewish people as a whole are not a religion, but a culture, a civilization. I myself am Jewish but am not religious. The majority of Jews in the state of Israel are not religious but are instead secular. And more than half the Jews in America (approximately 68% according to a Pew survey some 3 years ago) identify as secular or not religious. Unlike Christianity, being Jewish has to do with who you are born to and not what you believe in your head.
My statements regarding what the Jewish people wrote was not about "religious authorities," but about the culture and civilization that produced the Jewish Scriptures. Unfortunately we do have to deal with the fact of my own people's past reliance on superstition (it is the Jewish Scripture of Daniel we were discussing after all), but when this is done via reliable methodologies with the assistance of disinterested academics to prove your work, you can be assured of conclusions that are reliable and not based upon anyone's personal opinon or religious dogma.
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EasyPrompt
"disinterested academics"
"ox·y·mo·ron
/ˌäksəˈmôrˌän/
noun: oxymoron; plural noun: oxymorons
a figure of speech in which apparently contradictory terms appear in conjunction (e.g. faith unfaithful kept him falsely true )."that fashionable rhetorical novelty, the humblebrag, is itself an oxymoron" (Definitions from Oxford Languages)
"reliable methodologies with the assistance of disinterested academics to prove your work, you can be assured of conclusions that are reliable and not based upon anyone's personal opinon or religious dogma"
I've never met an academic who wasn't interested in furthering their career.
I've never known a reliable academic methodology that wasn't biased by anyone's personal opinion or religious dogma.
You can believe what you want but the only conclusions I've ever found to be 100% reliable are God's, which can be found recorded in the Bible. Some people might misunderstand the Bible or misinterpret the Bible, but that doesn't undermine the credibility of its Source.
By the way, KalebOutWest, I hope you enjoyed your yoma arichta celebration this past month. It's always nice to think about ways we can help other people and be welcoming. Shanah tovah to you. Also, how was your Yom Kippur a few days ago? The closing service ends with the Shema, that's cool. Now it's time for Sukkot. Do you take of the Four Kinds? (My daughter's middle name is based on the myrtle.) Nice that the Four Kinds represent unity.
Here is something perhaps you will appreciate, since it is Sukkot, the time to read the Hallel Psalms...Psalms 113-118...
One of my favorites of the Hallel Psalms is Psalm 118...
"Give thanks to Jehovah, for he is good;
His loyal love endures forever.
Let Israel now say:
“His loyal love endures forever.”
Let those of the house of Aaron now say:
“His loyal love endures forever.”
Let those fearing Jehovah now say:
“His loyal love endures forever.”
I called on Jah in my distress;
Jah answered and brought me into a place of safety.
Jehovah is on my side;
I will not be afraid.
What can man do to me?
Jehovah is on my side as my helper;
I will look in triumph on those who hate me.
It is better to take refuge in Jehovah
Than to trust in humans.
It is better to take refuge in Jehovah
Than to trust in princes.
All the nations surrounded me,
But in the name of Jehovah, I warded them off.
They surrounded me, yes, I was completely surrounded,
But in the name of Jehovah, I warded them off.
They surrounded me like bees,
But they were extinguished as quickly as a fire among thorns.
In the name of Jehovah, I warded them off.
I was pushed hard to make me fall,
But Jehovah helped me.
Jah is my shelter and my strength,
And he has become my salvation.
The sound of rejoicing and salvation
Is in the tents of the righteous.
The right hand of Jehovah is demonstrating its power.
The right hand of Jehovah is exalting itself;
The right hand of Jehovah is demonstrating its power.
I will not die, no, I will live,
In order to declare the works of Jah.
Jah disciplined me severely,
But he did not hand me over to death.
Open to me the gates of righteousness;
I will enter them and praise Jah.
This is the gate of Jehovah.
The righteous will enter through it.
I will praise you, for you answered me
And you became my salvation.
The stone that the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This has come from Jehovah;
It is wonderful in our eyes.
This is the day that Jehovah has made;
We will be joyful and rejoice in it.
Jehovah, save us, please, we beg!
Jehovah, grant us victory, please!
Blessed is the one who comes in the name of Jehovah;
We bless you from the house of Jehovah.
Jehovah is God;
He gives us light.
Join in the festival procession with branches in hand,
Up to the horns of the altar.
You are my God, and I will praise you;
My God, I will exalt you.
Give thanks to Jehovah, for he is good;
His loyal love endures forever."
“Chag Sameach!” חַג שָׂמֵחַ
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KalebOutWest
Why are you suprised at the term "disinterested academics"?
You, EasyPrompt, claimed to be an archeologist, remember? You claimed you went to various universities to gain your credentials to officially become this type of expert in one of our discussions.
As a scientist you should be familiar with the need for having a disinterested party to ensure any critical conclusion anyone makes.
It isn't an "oxymoron" to a person who practices your methodology. Without a fellow academic to act as a disinterested party one cannot produce a critical theory, you know that. That is "Science 101," not an oxymoron.
As a Humanistic Jew, while I do celebrate Sukkot, I do not wave the Lulav.
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Kosonen
Kaleb, what do you say about the Tanakh? I just googled to see if the book of Daniel is there and yes it is.
https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/63255/jewish/Tanakh---The-Hebrew-Bible.htm
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KalebOutWest
Kasonen wrote:
Kaleb, what do you say about the Tanakh? I just googled to see if the book of Daniel is there and yes it is.
I did signify this in my post before in one of my previous posts, writing:
Daniel is not included in the Prophets section of the Jewish canon, but the writings due not only to this fact but to the fact that it is not a prophecy but an apocalypse written by the Hasmoneons/Maccabees.
The Jewish canon is divided into three sections, namely the Torah (the Law), the Nevi'im (the Prophets), and the Ketuvim (the Writings). The letters from the three sections create the acronym from which the Jewish word "Tanakh" comes from.
The Book of Daniel is placed in the Ketuvim or "Writings" section of the Jewish Bible and not in the "Nevi'im or "Prophets" section. As I mentioned, "Daniel" is a Jewish folkhero from the Mesopotamian ancient world. He was not a real, historical person. The book is an apocalypse not a book of prophecy. That is why I said it was in the Writings section of the Jewish canon.
How you missed this or misunderstood this, I do not know.
Chabad, by the way, is a Jewish Orthodox religious group, some members of which believe its founder is the Jewish Messiah who died not too long ago. They do not believe in critical study but in mystical religious experience. Chabad does not speak for all Jews, just for their small group.
(If you want to know more about Judaism in general try the site My Jewish Learning which covers all Jewish denominations and the book Judaism for Dummies.)
Since Daniel was the last book written, being composed during the time of the Maccabees/Hasmoneans right before the first Chanukah (164 BCE), the book is often referred to among some Jews as "the Last Book." This is one of the reasons chapter 12 of Daniel ends with mention of the sealing of the book, the time of the end, and the resurrection.
The Hasmoneans described their struggles against the Hellenists in the person of "Daniel" and dramatized the fall of the Babylonians and world powers as the Seleucids to describe the re-dedication of the Temple under the Maccabees.
Even the official Roman Catholic Bible, the NABRE, states in its intoduction to Daniel:
This work was composed during the bitter persecution carried on by Antiochus IV Epiphanes (167–164 B.C.) and was written to strengthen and comfort the Jewish people in their ordeal. The persecution was occasioned by Antiochus’s efforts to unify his kingdom, in face of the rising power of Rome, by continuing the hellenization begun by Alexander the Great; Antiochus tried to force Jews to adopt Greek ways, including religious practices.