VAT4956 - 530 BC destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar

by jwposter 271 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Jeffro


    From Clement of Alexandria

    So… not a Jewish source.

    Neither worship as the Jews…[for] if the moon is not visible

    This particular quote, always with the ellipsis and omitted text, is very conspicuously only on lunar sabbath nutter websites. As is usually the case with these nutty fringe views, the ellipsis serves as a warning that the statement is out of context. Let’s see if he’ll provide the full quote of the text in between…

    Aside from the fact that Clement isn’t a Jewish source, he is obviously not talking about the Jews when he says ‘they’ do not hold various Jewish observances. It is also obvious that ‘the first’ in the second quote (when the moon is not visible) is not the same as ‘the first week’ in the first quote (during a half moon).

    Clement is referring, in the first passage to a general approximation of the lunar cycle, and in the second to various observances that do not dictate the timing of the sabbath.

  • jwposter

    The 1899 edition of the Encyclopedia Biblica says,

    The Hebrew Sabbath (i.e. Creation Sabbath) was originally a Sabbathon…it was celebrated at intervals of seven days, corresponding with the changes in the moon’s phases. Encyclopaedia Biblica, 1899, p. 4180.

    The Hebrew month is a lunar month and the quarter of this period – one phase of the moon – appears to have determined the week of seven days. Encyclopaedia Biblica, 1899, p. 4780.

    The introduction of the custom of celebrating the Sabbath every 7th day, irrespective of the relationship of the day to the moon’s phases , led to a complete separation from the ancient view of the Sabbath. Encyclopaedia Biblica, 1903 p. 5290.

    In the years following Clement of Alexandria’s time, an ominous change started to take place that was to radically change the Christian concept of the Sabbath. This intimate connection between the week and the month was soon dissolved. It is certain that the week so on followed a development of its own, and it became the custom — without paying any regard to the days of the month (i.e. the lunar month) — … so that the New Moon no longer coincided with the first day [of the month ]. Encyclopedia Biblica , (1899 edit.), p. 5290.

    The four quarters of the moon supply an obvious division of the month…it is most significant that in the older parts of the Hebrew scriptures the new moon and the Sabbath are almost invariably mentioned together . The [Lunar] month is beyond question an old sacred division of time common to all the Semites ; even the Arabs, who received the week at quite a late period from the Syrians, greeted the New Moon with religious acclamations. We cannot tell [exactly] when the Sabbath became disassociated from the month. Encyclopedia Biblica (1899 edit.), pp. 4178 and 4179

  • Jeffro

    1899 edition

    🙄 and even that is taken out of context. For example…

    so that the New Moon no longer coincided with the first day [of the month ]

    This is talking about the ‘new moon’ as the first observable crescent being differentiated from the ‘new moon’ as no visible moon at all. It is nothing to do with the date of the sabbath.

  • jwposter

    The Jewish Encyclopedia says,

    Those [appointed Festivals] connected with the moon: (a) Sabbath; (b) New Moon; and (c) the New Moon of the seventh month. Jewish, the unedited full-text of the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia, “Festivals,” Classification of Festivals, Emil Hirsch, Vol. 5, p. 376.

    The moon was the beneficent… [herald] of the shepherds in the region and climate where ancient Israel had its ancestral home. Hence the many traces of lunar institutions in even the latest Israelitish cult and its phraseology… The Sabbath, as marking the end of the week, reveals its lunar origin; the phases of the moon having taught the shepherds, whose weal or woe depends so largely upon the benevolence or malevolence of the night season, to divide the period elapsing between two new moons into four equal groups (weeks), the last day of each… Indications are not wanting that at first the New Moon festival was not counted among the seven days of the week (see Week); but after… New Moon days… a new cycle of four weeks began… Later, the week and the Sabbath became fixed [according to the Babylonian/Roman continuous weekly cycle]; and this gradually resulted in taking away from the New Moon festival its popular importance. Jewish, the unedited full-text of the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia, “Festivals,” Pastoral Feasts, Emil Hirsch, Vol. 5, p. 376.

    Under the reign of Constantius the persecutions of the Jews reached such a height that the computation of the (luni-solar) calendar (was) forbidden under pain of severe punishment. The Jewish Encyclopedia, “Calendar.”

    At the end of four weeks an interval of one or two days [30th day and New Moon Day] … intervene before the new [lunar month and] week could begin. At an early date [359 AD], however, this intimate connection between the week and the moon must have been dissolved. Jewish, unedited full-text of the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia, “Week,” by Emil G. Hirsch, Vol. 12, p. 481.

    A unit of time; the period between one new moon and another. According to the account of Creation in Genesis, it was decreed that the “lesser light” should “rule the night” and serve “for signs and for seasons” [mo’edim] (Gen. 1:14). The Psalmist also says, “He appointed the moon for seasons” [mo’edim] (Ps. 104:19).” Undoubtedly there was an occasional interpolation of an extra [automatic lunar] month to correct the lunar year to the solar cycle; and it is evident from the fact that the festivals named in given months—such as Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles—all had to do with crops…the highest antiquity. The relation of the months to the signs of the zodiac is a further evidence that the solar-lunar year was employed. Jewish Encyclopedia, “Month,” Cyrus Adler, Judah David Eisenstein, Vol. 8, p.671.

    The history of the Jewish calendar may be divided into three periods—the Biblical, the Talmudic, and the post-Talmudic. The first rested purely on the observation of the sun and the moon, the second on observation and reckoning, the third entirely on reckoning. Jewish, the unedited full-text of the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia, “History of the Calendar,” by Joseph Jacobs, Cyrus Adler, Vol. 3, p. 498.

    The Sabbath depending, in Israel’s nomadic period, upon the observation of the phases of the moon, it could not, accordingly be a fixed day [meaning a fixed planetary day of the modern Roman cycling week]. The Jewish Encyclopedia: A Descriptive Record of the History. Edited by Isidore Singer, Cyrus Adler, Volume 10, p. 590.

    [When] dissociated from the moon, the Sabbath developed into a day of rest for the workers and animals on the farm… Traces of the old taboo [forbidden New Moon and lunar calendar model from creation] are, however, found. In Amos 8:5 it is the fear of… consequences [for not abstaining from work on the New Moon Day and Sabbath] that keeps the impatient merchants from plying their wicked trade. The Assyrian [Babylonian/Roman] calendar seems to disclose an effort to get rid of the movable [lunar] Sabbath in favor of the fixed [continuous weekly cycle]. Jewish, Jewish Encyclopedia 1906, SABBATH, Emil G. Hirsch, Joseph Jacobs, Executive Committee of the Editorial Board, Julius H. Greenstone, Vol. 10, p. 591.

  • Jeffro
    The Sabbath depending, in Israel’s nomadic period, upon the observation of the phases of the moon

    I already explained this. As the Jewish Encyclopedia explains, the nomadic period relates to a much earlier Semitic period, not Jewish practice in the Neo-Babylonian period, and certainly not in the 1st century. Specifically, "When the Israelites settled in the land and became farmers, their new life would have made it desirable that the Sabbath should come at regular intervals, and the desired change would have been made all the more easily as they had abandoned the lunar religion." (The Jewish Encyclopedia, Sabbath)

    The moon was the beneficent… [herald] of the shepherds

    There's those ellipses and interpolations again... you're copying and pasting from nutter websites, not the actual sources. The Jewish Encylcopedia actually says "The moon was the beneficent deity of the shepherds in the region" in that earlier nomadic period. Little wonder the nutter sites, wanting to stick to an illusion of a monotheistic history, want to disguise that...

    Just stop.

  • Jeffro

    The actual quote from Clement is as follows:

    And that it is said, that we and the Greeks know the same God, though not in the same way, he will infer thus: "Neither worship as the Jews; for they, thinking that they only know God, do not know Him, adoring as they do angels and archangels, the month and the moon. And if the moon be not visible, they do not hold the Sabbath, which is called the first; nor do they hold the new moon, nor the feast of unleavened bread, nor the feast, nor the great day."

    Clement is saying that neither Christians nor Greeks worship in the same manner as the Jews. Clement is not referring to weekly sabbaths at all, nor associating weekly sabbaths with lunar cycles. The reference to the 'sabbath' as part of the expression "the Sabbath, which is called the first" is in reference to the 'feast of trumpets' (Rosh Hashanah) marking the 'Sabbath' (that is, rest) commanded on the first day of the (civil) new year. See also Leviticus 23:24.

    It would be redundant to say the first day of the seventh month is also a sabbath if the first day of every month were a sabbath anyway.

  • Jeffro

    Following is a summary of the major inconsistencies between the nutter chronology offered in this thread and the content of VAT 4956. Various 'minor' inconsistencies (mostly lunar observations) are not included. Note that other sources may have different criteria and margins of error for what I consider a 'major inconsistency'. Because the nutter chronology is unreliable, some dates may vary by a day, but none of the problems are resolved by the difference of 1 day. Where there are interpolations in the translation indicated by square brackets [], a best-case match is indicated for the alternative chronology where possible. (Apologies for any table formatting stripped out by the forum.)

    Date Line Comments
    13-Mar 6 Impossible reference to 8th of month XII2; there was no intercalary month the previous year
    5 Apr (am) 2 Saturn between Aquarius and Capricorn, not in front of ‘the Swallow’ (Pisces)
    15-16 Apr 4 Jupiter not anywhere near acronychal
    18 Apr (am) 4 Sunrise to moonset 55 minutes (39 minutes longer)
    5 May (am) 9 Saturn between Aquarius and Capricorn, not in front of ‘the Swallow’ (Pisces); Mercury had set, not visible
    6 May (pm) 10 Mars did not enter Praesepe or anything else significant
    9 May 10 Mars did not go out of Praesepe or anything else significant
    21 May (pm) 11 Venus near Cancer, not below α Leonis
    30 May (am) 11 Moonrise to sunrise 58 minutes (22 minutes shorter)
    2 Jun (pm) 12–14 Mars and Mercury not visible in evening; briefly visible before next sunrise, but not in front of α [anything]; Mercury passed below Mars to the East; Jupiter in Leo, not above α Scorpii; Venus in west far below θ Leonis
    6 Jun (pm) 14 Moon in Virgo, not near “end of Lion’s foot”
    11 Jun 16 Impossible date for solstice
    11 Jun (pm) 16 Moon between Virgo and Leo, not above α Scorpii
    14 Jun (pm) 16 Mars visible for less than an hour in the morning, not notably above [anything] to warrant measurement in cubits
    18 Jun (am) 17 Sunrise to moonset 118 minutes (88 minutes longer)
    14 Jan (am) 3' Venus in Sagittarius, not below Capricorn
    24 Jan (pm) 5' Sunset to moonset 102 minutes (44 minutes longer)
    25 Jan (am) 5' Jupiter in Virgo, not behind elbow of Sagittarius
    3-4 Feb 7' Moon in front of Cancer, not relative to α Leonis
    7 Mar (am) 16'-17' [Mercury] in front of the “band” of ‘the Swallow’ (Pisces) behind Venus, too far from Venus to match observation
    7 Mar (am) 16'-17' Moon already set before sunrise
    Between 7 Mar and 14 Mar 17'-18' [No observable planets] above Mercury and below Venus in required period; Mars below [?] granted due to ambiguity
    15 Mar (am) 19'-20' Mercury in Pisces but not observable, Venus did not enter the “band” of ‘the Swallow’ (Pisces)
    21 Mar (am) 20' Neither Mercury nor Venus [entered or left] the "band" of Anunitu (Pisces); Mercury was not observable
  • jwposter

    So I think for the readers that I have given enough information to thoroughly see that the Jews observed the lunar sabbaths at the time of Christ and before. There are much more sources. Here are a few including some already mentioned:

    Of course Hlllel II was the one that fixed the calendar and moved away from the lunar-solar calendar in the 4th century.

    Philo was also a contemporary of Jesus who wrote about the relationship of the festivals to the 15th day and the lunar month and how the moon's phases were related to the week.

  • Jeffro


    So I think for the readers that I have given enough information to thoroughly see that the Jews observed the lunar sabbaths at the time of Christ and before.

    You think that, do you? 🤣 I’ve thoroughly trounced you on every aspect. It was also plain that that was the particular site you copy and pasted from for the quotes taken out of context. What a joke.

    moved away from the lunar-solar calendar in the 4th century

    Another irrelevant distraction that has nothing to do with the determination of sabbath days. The Hebrew calendar remained lunisolar, but it was changed to base months on calculations rather than observations only.

    the relationship of the festivals to the 15th day and the lunar month

    The fact that the 15th day of a lunar month is related to… the lunar month is yet another self-evident distraction from the fact that your nonsense about ’lunar sabbaths’ (in either the neo-Babylonian period or the first century) has been shown to be completely wrong. Your own cited sources make it clear that sabbaths were only based on a lunar cycle in a very early period of nomadic Semites prior to Jewish settlements.

    But if you really think you’ve ‘given enough information’, feel free to finally just go away.

  • TonusOH

    The approach of just dumping "information" and hoping that volume will overwhelm any opposition is perhaps best exemplified in this topic.

Share this