Sisters may pursue church case-Another Blow to the WT

by DevonMcBride 70 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

  • Uzzah

    It is not a spiritual matter that can be fixed by untrained elders praying over the abuser. Your Old Testament example falls short in that during those times the religious leaders were also the administrators of the Law. In modern times and in the Christian Congregations, Elders are not judges of crimes nor should they be approached about such matters. It is the responsibility of secular authoirites (that Jehovah allows to exist and thus we are Scripturally told to support) to investigate such criminal behaviour.

    There is all this concern about the abuser or even the alleged abuser, but so little focus on the life destroyed, that of the child. Which gets more consideration in your opinion? The spiritual well being of the child, the spiritual health or reputation of the accused or the reputation of God's Organization? Scripturally which should take first priority?

    Gower has admitted to have 'acted inappropriately' yet even you are more focussed on his right to spiritual life in the congregation than you are the person who's life was destroyed by him and later by the way she was mishandled by the elders at the direction of Bethel. Of course if she was truly a spiritual woman she wouldn't let this bother her right? (sarcasm intended) I'm sure you've heard that justification before, "Well s/he may have received discipline wrongly but it gives her a chance to prove her devotion to Jehovah." Again it is the victim's fault.

    This is a hot button for me, look at the screen name for a clue on that one. Why was Uzzah killed when all he wanted to do was to protect the Ark of the Covenant? It was the priest's fault for carrying the ark improperly, yet Uzzah was killed. Bethel uses that story to keep the friends in line and to bully people into submission.

    A victim of abuse faces this same sort of intimidation tactics and bullying when there is no second witness to the abuse. S/he has to sit in the Kingdom Hall and see that brother pray on behalf of the congregation and if she says anything in warning to any other children or to the parent's of children, the victim of abuse will face judicial action for slandering and causing divisions. Is this loving? Is this the way you believe your Heavenly Father wants his sheep handled?

    Just as He took favour away from the Nation of Isreal, why is it so inconcievable that he couldn't do the same in modern times if His named people turned away from his face and became no different than other parts of Babylon, except continuing to bear his name.

    Look at the example of even the reporting of abuse to authorities. In States where it is not mandatory, the society will usually tell the elders not to report. Yet where the Law requires it, they now will usually tell the elders to report it only after their own investigation has been completed.

    If this really is God's Organization, why do they wait for Caeser's laws to change before they do the right and moral thing?

  • Scully

    Uzzah writes:

    Just as He took favour away from the Nation of Isreal, why is it so inconcievable that he couldn't do the same in modern times if His named people turned away from his face and became no different than other parts of Babylon, except continuing to bear his name.

    The sacrifice of children to the idolatrous worship of Ba'al was one of the reasons that Jehovah devoted Judah to destruction. When you recognize paedophilia as having/acting on a covetous (idolatrous) sexual appetite [ie, "inappropriate" to quote Gower Palmer and WT representatives] for children, how can anyone in their right mind believe that the WTS as it exists today has Jehovah's favour?? The ancient priests still offered the required sacrifices, just as most JWs continue to engage in the preaching work, yet Jehovah still saw fit to devote them to destruction.

    *** Rbi8 Jeremiah 7:30-31 ***

    30 ‘For the sons of Judah have done what is bad in my eyes,’ is the utterance of Jehovah. ‘They have set their disgusting things in the house upon which my name has been called, in order to defile it. 31 And they have built the high places of To´pheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hin´nom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart.’

    *** Rbi8 Jeremiah 19:3-5 ***

    3 And you must say, ‘Hear the word of Jehovah, O YOU kings of Judah and YOU inhabitants of Jerusalem. This is what Jehovah of armies, the God of Israel, has said:

    “‘“Here I am bringing a calamity upon this place, of which when anyone hears, his ears will tingle; 4 for the reason that they have left me and have proceeded to make this place unrecognizable and to make sacrificial smoke in it to other gods whom they had not known, they and their forefathers and the kings of Judah; and they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent ones. 5 And they built the high places of the Ba´al in order to burn their sons in the fire as whole burnt offerings to the Ba´al, something that I had not commanded or spoken of, and that had not come up into my heart.”’

    Has Jehovah changed in all these millennia?? Does the sacrifice of children - in ANY form - now 'come up into his heart'??

    Love, Scully ( playing with WT CD ROM 2001 mode )

  • hawkaw

    Well .... "flipper" ..... keep on trying to weasel out of things and change topics. It's all on this thread how you have flip flopped all over the place. Throwing up all that crap about the elders fault but conviently forgetting about the Shelburne situation and how it was being handled ... that is until some one like me "called you on it". Sure ... we .... all believe you ... "flipper".

    The fact of the matter is that the congregation headed by elders and the WTS Bethel allowed Gower Palmer the privileges and enjoyed his company. The fact of the matter is that Vicki was treated very badly.

    The fact of the matter is that you have ruled out all of the direct and indirect physical and testimonal evidence except for that which supports YOUR buddy Paul Berry. And when called on it by people like me you just flip flop around like a fish on the dock. Flip flop ... flip flop ....

    The fact of the matter is that by doctrine, YOU practice "lying by omission" to the free world and you have mislead people on this thread.

    The fact of the matter is you by doctrine practice bigotry against innocent abuse Survivors and every person who know longer wants to be part of this Organiztaion.

    The fact of the matter is because people like you spend more time trying to defend the WTS's image and their paedophiles than the survivors, the WTS will continue their policies that hurt women and little kids.

    Thankfully, a Judge has now ruled that people like YOU have a "common law duty" to report abuse and protect Survivors. And now if the WTS doesn't follow the common law requirements, then srvivors can sue people like you and your organizations.


  • sf

    Dang! Pardon me, needs-lots, for the long delay in replying. These 'threads/posts by' aren't as easy to search as they once were. Alas!

    {{{{{{hugs first of all}}}}} and {{{{{{{hawkeye too}}}}}}}}

    With due respect, hawkeye can tell you just how well informed I am about this and many other cases and 'items' re: Watchtower corruptionS. Believe me when I tell you that I do indeed know that 'hawkaw' ( i deemed him hawkEYE) was key in this case and is key in other vital 'projects'.

    Thing is, no one, and I mean NO ONE, knows just how vital a role I do indeed play in 'all things Watchtower' via the SuperHighWay. And there are many of us like this. We do not go about announcing our 'projects' and publically trying to rally people to our Efforts and Goals. We do things to, and that have, IN FACT, brought many out of the walls of Corruption. Hawk is just more vital, at this time, in a public fashion, on the net. I am vital on the net as well, yet in more covert ways. If I could tell you what it is I actually 'do' on the net, and in my community, you'd hug me back!! So, you see, many of us are Key. And we intend to stay this way.

    Do you, uh, yahoo? Come in sometime and WITNESS how we annihilate the WT doctrines and policies and educate the lurkers and 'fat' (overfed with rotten 'food') jws. How they scurry like cockroaches caught in The Light. It's a hoot at times to behold. The most important thing is though, and is key, is to Alert! the lurkers in these jw rooms of the bs they are hearing and direct them to sites, documents, news reports and KEY people, that will arm them with FACTS and research, to study this 'rackett' and find the truth that is a lie. Like was a good day in yahoo....hahahaha....had the jws out of the room in 5 mins flat!! hahaha ~sigh~

    I was telling them of the jws who moved out from across the street in about three weeks flat, soon after the wedding (i made a thread about this) when they discovered just how bad it was for them that they happened to live across from The sKallyWagger. They were gone in a flash! Same happens in yahoo, when I enter the room...they scurry.

    Plus, hawk knows how I feel about him. It's all good.

    Again, {{{{hugs}}}}

    Sincerely, sKallyWagger

  • czarofmischief

    Jonadab - I would like to commend you for not replying heatedly to Hawkaw's passionate comments. what I think you are dealing with, and it is a thing that all of us have had to comprehend, is the schizophrenic worldview that the Witnesses have.

    Let me explain. Witnesses are subjected to a barrage of statements in the Watchtower about how great their lives in the "truth" are. These statements are not presented as ideals, but rather as facts. For example, the WT may say something like, "In God's organization, all children are loved and protected." However, this statement flies in the face of reality. So, there is a failsafe clause in the doctrine that states, "Imperfection causes some misunderstandings." But the assumption is still that ALL JW's are basically good people. Most are. Some, like child molesters, are not. But there is no clause in the doctrine to cover actually WICKED people.

    This is why I believe that Jesus came to overthrow religion as an institution. There simply is no place for it, as it invariably tries to assume more power than it is entitled to.

    Back to my main point: The ideal is consistently presented as being the reality. What happens is cruelties, hypocrisy, and evildoing that have to be chalked up to more than imperfection.


  • Nordic

    To jonadab

    You are such a BASTARD


  • needs_lots


    Very interesting to hear people talking about me and my case.

    Jonab, you seem to know alot. I I thought Howe's name did end in "e". You must know him personally. Very interesting. Did you make it to any days of my trial.? I must know you. You know Frank M, and I know most people he knows. Perhaps you are a relative of the elders, or even a relative of mine. None of them talk to me. They all sat at the trial on the elders side. Even after they heard the truth , and that my father did abuse me. Not one person said they were sorry for not believing me. Not even my grandmother. Shows how sick they all are.

    The point I want to make clear is this. As a jw, you are told that you do not go outside the church for anything. So therefore the elders are the only place to go. If they want you to go to them with your problems, then they must be prepared to deal with them. They should be a safe place to go, as I said on the 5th estate, not a place to tear you apart. I begged not to confront my father!!!! I told the elders i was scared, and that I could not talk about the details of the abuse in front of him as they have told me I had to do. But they called bethel, and guess what, bethel said I had no choice. I had to confront my father or else! Then they blamed me for wearing pj's around the house, and even blamed my mother, saying perhaps she wasn't giving my father his "due"(sex). The judge liked that one!.

    So, If you say that you are part of a loving organization, that loves their children, you are wrong! In my case they had no excuse. The elders had 5 other elders telling them it was wrong, but they went behind their back and did it anyway as was directed by bethel. Special instructions. Nice. All of this came out at trial. Even Mr.Brown admitted that i was told to forgive my father, and show signs of forgiveness. So even though it made me sick, i put my arm around my dad at the hall. I was scared that if I didn't I would be d'fd. He was not publically reproved. Only the elders knew of his crimes. THE congregation did not know. The would not have even known that his priviledges were taken. Sorry my spelling is bad. Lack of a good education. But I have a good heart.

    It is a difficult time for me. It is taking a long time for the judge to make a decision. I want to close that part of my life. Thanks sf for clarifying. Hugs to you too. I needs lots of them. (hence my name) I know its slang.

    I will keep everyone informed if a decision is made.


  • waiting

    Hello Vicki,

    I sure I have your name right - this thread & different cases keep me confused (that's easily done, btw). I'm humbled by the courage you & the other women/girls have shown to confront the male WT Org. & male abusers. It stands out so much because women (like me) were made to be subserviant to all baptised males, incuding the idiots.

    The wait for the judge's decision must be excruciatingly slow. Salute.


    Seeing you know so much about the Berry case you will be happy to confirm for the crowd that ... the Watchtower spent more than $50,000
    defending this paedophile to Attorney Mark SiSti. But of course you wouldn't want to bring that up ... would you. - hawk
    So instead of taking responsibility the Watchtower leaders decide to spend more than $50,000
    to defend Paul Berry during his criminal trial? Talk about taking sides before hearing all the evidence is in. Disgusting. -hawk
    JWs would use in their judicial committees. It was the Watchtower ... who paid for Paul Berry's defence at the criminal trial and it was the congregation who supported him. And that was the problem wasn't it - supporting a child rapist over the victims even before all the evidence is heard .....

    Several people have asked.......where can this info be found? Not questioning you, Mr. Hawk.....just curious. Also curious as to why newspeople haven't questioned why a religious organization is defending it's average members (not elders, CO's etc) of child molestation and rape - particularily since jw's are just "untrained volunteers". Oh, wait - that's what the elders are. The locals are even lower on the rung of Society.

    Why isn't the WTBTS defending the victims against these *alledged* perverts.....instead of defending the *alledged* perverts?

    Paedophilia and child abuse is not a spiritual matter. It is a mental sickness and a criminal matter. This sickness does not simply go away with more prayer and meeting attendance or other obscure evidence of repentance. There are not any cure-alls for this illness either so the best option is to keep them away from children and fom positions where they will be put in contact with children. -uzzah

    Well, obviously, a child abuser isn't a strong - healthy - spiritual person. But that doesn't mean he/she is mentally ill. It does mean - in our society in this age - he/she is a pervert. It is a criminal matter because it is a crime.


    The figures you gave from Canada Legal are frightening, if accurate. I would also like to mention that not all of those reports would have been about baptized members of the congregation. Included too would be unbaptized ones associated with the congregation and non-Witness relatives of members. - jonadab

    How do you know -for sure - who is included in those figures? Since when does the WTBTS keep detailed information on "non-Witness relatives of members?" Would elders call into Committe Meetings for "fact finding" - "unbaptised ones associated with the congregation and non-Witness relatives of members?" Where are those guidelines in the Elders' Handbook?

    Just the same it is frightening. We as Jehovah's Witnesses are prone to be more trusting of people and a little naive when it comes to the evil things that go on in the world. - jonadab

    That is the most Jehovah's Witness typical, unethical, sidestep I've seen you take yet. "We as Jehovah's Witnesses" have a decent amount of child molesters within our own brotherhood.

    This has NOTHING to do with the "evil things that on on in the world." This is the RAPING OF CHILDREN BY JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES in the congregation.....and being kept from the police.


  • waiting

    hey hawk,

    sorry about the screwed up quotes.........this whole thread has problems with that.

  • hawkaw

    No problem waiting. The 5th Estate investigation reported that the WTS paid for Berry's defence at criminal trial. The sentencing hearing explains who was Berry's lawyer at trial. The "cool dude" in Kentucky (that you and I know) plus many who investigated the story including those at CBC know the cost.

    As for the way I am treating Jon in somewhat of an unprofessional way ... yep that's right but there is a reason why I am talking this approach in this case if you have been paying attention - and Jon knows it very well.


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