by DevonMcBride 70 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse
Hi Waiting,
You said: "There really isn't a one-to-one confessional. None. All JW's know this."
You and I and "all" JWs know this, but the Court does not know that in the same way that we do. The court will allow the WTS an opportunity to prove its claim. Lets hope that the plaintiff's council is sharp enough to counter the WTS' attempts to misrepresent the facts.
Sam
Hawk,
Would these quotes help the court case? The first one is from the 1994 Watchtower, Feb 15, page 7. The second one is from the Knowledge book, 1995, page 137, paragraph 20.
*** w94 2/15 7 Are Jehovah's Witnesses a Cult? ***
*** kl 137 14 Whose Authority Should You Recognize? ***
I think the judge would be real interested in seeing their own admissions to NOT being clergy. Wouldn't that do away with the whole clergy/privilege issue?
Lilacs4
sf,
I read quickly over your comments to hawk. Yes it is true that more could be done to let the world know of the horrible things going on inside the wt. But I want to say one thing, Hawk has been the one to do that. He has kept the press informed and updated every step of the way in "everyones" battles.
If it wasnt for Hawk, I would not have had the press at my trial last sept. He was amazing, and continues to be amazing. Here is a person that was never a jw, fighting against the wt. WOW.
THANK YOU HAWK
Perhaps you need to get involved too, or perhaps we all could do a little more. I spent 2 weeks in trial against the wt, and feel I still have't done enough.
THe judge has yet to make her ruling.
I will keep you all informed.
Some very important points are being made on this tread.
vic
I spent 2 weeks in trial against the wt, and feel I still have't done enough.
I have been following this case since it hit the headlines. As I understand it Vicki's father, Gower Palmer, has admitted to the abuse yet it is not Gower that is being sued. On the other hand the Canadian branch office of the Watchtower Society and the Shelburne elders involved in this case did not sexually molest Vicki and yet it is these ones who are on trial. With respect for Vicki and all that she has been through it seems to me that the wrong ones are in the hot seat.
In the case against Paul Berry he was convicted on the basis of his word against that of his wife, daughter and step-daughter. He has always maintained his innocence throughout the trial and even now. There was no attempt to gain a plea bargain. There was no evidence to convict him except the word of his former family. Half the congregation showed up to support him and about 2 dozen spoke in his behalf at his sentencing hearing. I've read the transcript. The courts may have convicted him, but I'm not convinced of his guilt. I do wonder what the goal of his family is in suing the Society. Is the whole thing motivated by money? I don't know.
I know that Vicki must be feeling deep hurt over her abuse. That abuse is not in question. I would like to know why Vicki isn't pursuing her father? I think that is a fair question to ask. Why sue the elders and the Society?
How do people like you ..... Jonadab ... actually make it on this site and spew absolute B.S. crap to victims/survivors. You get a kick out of it? Enjoy it?
For the record Jonadab (as you already know), there was a thorough investigation done by the police in New Hampshire. There were video tapes of the crime seens and all sorts of direct evidence presented .... besides the witnesses testimony that landed that bastard in jail. What did you conviently forget that part of the evidence trail?
And oh ... BTW ... after the police completed their thorough review of the evidence they laid a huge number of charges. Then, there was a pre-hearing trial followed by a trial and then followed by an appeal. In other words there were a number of checks and balances to ensure the person was correctly charged and convicted. The bastard is guilty beyond a "reasonable doubt" which is even a tougher stance than what the JWs would use in their judicial committees. It was the Watchtower ... who paid for Paul Berry's defence at the criminal trial and it was the congregation who supported him. And that was the problem wasn't it - supporting a child rapist over the victims even before all the evidence is heard . Shame on you Jonadab for coming on this board and trying to sweep the conviction of a sick bastard under rug ..... does it make you feel good? I can hardly wait for your next disgusting post.
As for Vicki's case .... if you were actually following the case properly you would know what it is about .... which is the evil hurt laid upon her by having to go through judicial committee meetings with untrained elders and her father. As the expert witness explained the harm that it caused was just as bad as being abused by her father.
It would be tough to sue Gower Palmer due to the age of the abuse and the emotion involved and you know it too and you conviently never have brought them up. These are the standard MOs of WTS apolgists - bring stuff up to make the victim look bad.
I'm disgusted.
hawk
p.s. - Vicki .... gee thanks buddy but its truly a team effort with many besides me operating in are own little way to try and change things.
p.s.s. - lilacs - thanks for this information but it is Jeff Anderson's team who is leading the charge. I will send it off today or tommorrow. If I am not around you can always send it to Bill.
My apologies to Vicki if my question offended her in any way. It was not my intent to add to the hurt she has already suffered. Obviously I don't have the knowledge of someone who has been in the courthouse during the trial. I also don't have a law degree. All the information I have is what I have read in the newspaper and from an individual or two who have been part of the Shelburne congregation. My purpose in asking the question was not to make Vicki 'look bad', as you put it hawkaw. I didn't know the answer to this question and this is why I asked. Thank you for the answer.
As far as Paul Berry is concerned the evidence presented convicted him, but the proof was not absolute. There was no DNA to prove the allegations. People have been sent to prison after extensive investigations and testimony by witnesses. Do the names David Milgaard, Guy Paul Morin and Stephen Truscott ring any bells? The fact of the matter is that our present judicial system, as well-intentioned as it is, is fallible. Guilty people are freed and innocent people go to jail. It happens all the time. Type 'wrongful convictions' into any search engine and you will have many hours of reading to do. People spend years in jail for things they didn't do.
I understand that Paul Berry was given a polygraph test prior to the trial and passed it. I also understand that his wife and step-daughter, during a taped interview, admitted to lying to the police and prosecutor about various things. Is Paul Berry guilty of sexually abusing his daughter and step-daughter? I have my own opinions. But we will never know for absolutely sure. Only Paul Berry, the two girls and Jehovah know for certain.
Give it a break - you are not sorry for what you are writing. I know your MO. And if you actually followed the trial you would have known what the case was about and why she sued way before you wrote what you did.
As for your comments wrt to Berry ... if anyone lied they would have been charged with obstruction and the case would not have made it as far as it did. Shall we quote Attorney Brown on honesty from the sentencing hearing of Paul Berry (97-S-1611) when describing Holly ....
Now, in dealing with Holly in getting ready for this case, it just struck me how blatantly honest she was, and how truthful she was, and how much courage it took for her to come forward after these years and talk about all these unspeakable acts. And when you're imposing a sentence on the defendant, the State would like you to keep in mind that Holly didn't come forward because of herself. She testified that she had closed the door, that she had moved on with her life. She didn't ~ have to see him anymore. She came forward and went through this because of concern for her sister, and she told you that. And speaking of her truthfulness and her honesty, in preparing for this hearing, counsel for the State listened to Holly's direct examination and her cross examination; and when she was being crossed by Attorney Sisti she told him that she was being truthful and that she was going to continue to be truthful. And he challenged her on that, and she told him to chip away, to go ahead and chip away. Well you know, Your Honor, the defendant's actions, the repeated abuse over the years, chipped away at her. It annihilated her childhood. And it chipped away at her as a person. And a lot of other people would have been broken by what he did; but she’s not. She has triumphed and become the person that she is today, and the person that spoke to you and to the jury at that trial. And because of her courage in coming forward, the defendant has been held responsible for his actions. And because of how horrific his actions are, he should get the sentence proposed by the State.
And what about the direct evidence that the school reported Paul's physical abuse of the son to DCYF and a social worker came to visit the family. Did not the social worker explain that if his violence continued that Sarah would loose the children? But in your world ... Jon .... Paul Berry is a good little boy who would never hit anyone ... right? ... and of course that "imprint of a fly swatter" on the son's leg was all made up by the school, case worker and mother.
And what the Children's Hospitals' reports about Heather being a "cutter". Why I bet you think those reports are all made up too .... don't yeah .... Even with half my brain tied behind my back (as Rush would say) I know why Heather cut herself as a child and for you to go there and suggest it didn't happen or she is making it all up is just absolutely disgusting.
The fact of the matter is that you again decide to miss key portions of the "physical" evidence that the police confirmed .... it's disgusting how you decide to take other famous cases from many years ago and try to make it seem that the Berry case is similar and quite frankly a very very very small percentage of people spend time behind bars for things they did not do .... and you know it too.
Seeing you know so much about the Berry case you will be happy to confirm for the crowd that ... the Watchtower spent more than $50,000 defending this paedophile to Attorney Mark SiSti. But of course you wouldn't want to bring that up ... would you.
You are a Canadian and likely a member of the Shelburne congregation or the Georgetown Bethal. Maybe you are Vicki's Aunt who was on here back in September. For what you guys did to Vicki and what continue do to to her and say about her and her lawyer behind their backs, you should be very ashamed of yourself.
hawk
Jona, you are one scurvy bastard.
I have been following this case since it hit the headlines. As I understand it Vicki's father, Gower Palmer, has admitted to the abuse yet it is not Gower that is being sued
Did her dad abuse her ? You said you had your own opinions! Shit....if the old man admitted it.....why can't you?
I suppose since Charlie Manson was only the mastermind behind the "Tate" murders......they should have sued the actually killers.......but left him alone ....eh Jonadab?
Gumby
Ping ! .... for afternoon crowd
