Sisters may pursue church case-Another Blow to the WT

by DevonMcBride 70 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

• 

  jgnat

  When abuse occurs, those held liable often go beyond the abuser. You might remember a well-publicized case of child endangerment last year. Twin girls died while in the care of their grandfather, who was transporting them from Alberta to his home in Ontario.

  Was only the grandfather responsible, or were others culpable as well? Did the social worker in Alberta take appropriate steps to make sure the babies were being transported in a safe manner? Did the social services system in Alberta help or hinder care for those babies?

  http://www.theobserver.ca/2002/pts_020731.html

  By the way, the grandfather was proved innocent. The social worker in Alberta was fired. In the same way the WTS should be held responsible for the way it handles or protects abusers, either directly or by its policies.
• 

  Jonadab

  Jona, you are one scurvy bastard.

  Please see posting guidelines 1 & 3 regarding insulting language and swearing.

  Did her dad abuse her ? You said you had your own opinions! Shit....if the old man admitted it.....why can't you?

  Perhaps you should reread what I wrote gumby. My opinions were regarding the Berry case, not Vicki's. Gower Palmer has admitted guilt. There is no denying that.

  I suppose since Charlie Manson was only the mastermind behind the "Tate" murders......they should have sued the actually killers.......but left him alone ....eh Jonadab?

  Charlie Manson got what he deserved. How are you trying to use this analogy? Are you trying to say that the Watchtower Society masterminded the sexual abuse of a young girl? Did they have control over Gower Palmer to the extent that they caused him to commit this act? Of course not.

  When abuse occurs, those held liable often go beyond the abuser. You might remember a well-publicized case of child endangerment last year. Twin girls died while in the care of their grandfather, who was transporting them from Alberta to his home in Ontario.

  Was only the grandfather responsible, or were others culpable as well? Did the social worker in Alberta take appropriate steps to make sure the babies were being transported in a safe manner? Did the social services system in Alberta help or hinder care for those babies?

  By the way, the grandfather was proved innocent. The social worker in Alberta was fired. In the same way the WTS should be held responsible for the way it handles or protects abusers, either directly or by its policies.

  I remember hearing about this case at the time. Very sad. In reading the article it is of interest to note that serious injuries to the children resulting from abuse by the daughter or her boyfriend was not reported to the grandfather at the time of his taking custody. The twins also suffered from a metabolic disorder that was likely present from birth. The Alberta Children's Services was responsible for the physical welfare of the children. It seems that they didn't do their job properly and that is why a senior Alberta social worker was fired following the probe. The physical welfare of the children was their responsibility. The principal concern of the Watchtower Society and congregation elders is the spiritual welfare of the flock under their care. The scriptures state that it is the responsibility of the parents to provide for their children's spiritual, physical and emotional well-being. Obviously there was a failure within the home to protect Vicki. Gower bears the greatest burden of culpability because it was his abuse that caused this whole ordeal from the start. He failed his responsibility as a father and as the spiritual head of his family. He also brought reproach on Jehovah's name. Are the Watchtower Society and the Shelburne congregation elders responsible for the sexual abuse Vicki suffered? No. The abuse was not reported until after the fact. I don't intend to comment on the private procedings. Should Vicki have been given medical help and psychiatric counselling? She would have got it if she was my daughter. I don't always agree with the things that elders do. I have had some serious disagreements with elders at times. On the other hand, despite the failings and imperfections of elders, I cannot reject the truth that this is still Jehovah's organization. Imperfect men make mistakes. Sometimes there are elders who abuse their power. Sometimes priorities get mixed up.

  You are a Canadian and likely a member of the Shelburne congregation or the Georgetown Bethal. Maybe you are Vicki's Aunt who was on here back in September. For what you guys did to Vicki and what continue do to to her and say about her and her lawyer behind their backs, you should be very ashamed of yourself.

  I am a Canadian. I am not a member of the Shelburne congregation now, nor have I ever been. I am not a member of Georgetown Bethel, nor have I ever been. I am not Vicki's aunt, nor have I ever been accused of being female.
• 

  expatbrit

  Are the Watchtower Society and the Shelburne congregation elders responsible for the sexual abuse Vicki suffered? No.

  This is the red herring that that Watchtower Society continually threw out at the trial. They try to make it appear as if by suing the Watchtower and the elders, Vicki is accusing them of responsibility for the actual abuse.

  They are not being sued for the actual abuse. They are being sued because they failed miserably in the duty that they owe to people under their "spiritual care" (and in the moral duty that any human being owes another). They failed miserably to comply with the reporting requirements for child abuse. They compounded and exacerbated the suffering of the victim through their bullying inquisitions. And by forcing the victim into silence through emotional blackmail, they allowed other children to be at risk.

  That is why they are being sued. Not for responsibility for the actual abuse. The question quoted above is deliberately deceptive, and shows how the Watchtower and its supporters will twist the truth to obscure the reality of their negligence.

  Expatbrit
• 

  Jonadab

  Thank you for your reply expatbrit. The results of the trial will be interesting to see. I'm looking forward to reading the judgement.
• 

  hawkaw

  Well I see we are now not talking about the Berry case .... I wonder why ... so now we are going back to the Boer case.
  

  This comment says lots ...
  

  I don't always agree with the things that elders do. I have had some serious disagreements with elders at times. On the other hand, despite the failings and imperfections of elders, I cannot reject the truth that this is still Jehovah's organization. Imperfect men make mistakes. Sometimes there are elders who abuse their power. Sometimes priorities get mixed up.

  Anyone who followed the trial knew that Watchtower Georgetown Bethal and New York were calling the shots. It was 5 of the 7 elders who wanted to report the abuse properly led by Frank Mott-Trille. I assume you have read those letters based on your knowledge of the trial. How you can come on this db and start lying that it was the elders calling the shots in this Boer mess - it is absolutely disgusting.

  Yes the father, Gower Palmer, is negligent under tort battery. I note for the record that Gower Palmer's troubles may not be finished if you actually followed the case .... but you wouldn't want to bring that up.

  The principal concern of the Watchtower Society and congregation elders is the spiritual welfare of the flock under their care.

  Quite frankly it was determined at the Boer trial that the Watchtower ordered its agents (the elders) to break section 72 of the Child and Family Services Act. In other words they ALL broke the law! A law designed to protect children. I am all happy for you about this flock under their care crap but and a big but these guys couldn't make a phone call that by law they must? And don't feed me that crap that they got good old Gower to go on his own to Children's Aid. The facts are the WTS leadership ordered the elders not to report the offence, delayed the reporting by Gower and have never provided Children's Aid with the file information they had in their pocession that they should have.

  Gower bears the greatest burden of culpability because it was his abuse that caused this whole ordeal from the start. He failed his responsibility as a father and as the spiritual head of his family. He also brought reproach on Jehovah's name.

  Oh what a brilliant statement. So lets see you explain reality to the db .... Janadab !!! Can you do it? Here let me help you ......Gower Palmer confessed to one count in the friggin ... what ... 3rd Judicial committee? And what did these elders do under the direction from the Canadian Bethal seeing there was this so-called reproach on Jehovah .... they took away Gower Palmers .... MICROPHONE DUTIES AT THE FRIGGIN HALL .... WOW WHAT PUNISHMENT when I see smokers get the friggin boot, face creed bigotry and labelled. And then a few months later Gower is moving up in the congregation while Vicki's grandmother is saying she is making it all up!!!!

  Charlie Manson got what he deserved. How are you trying to use this analogy? ...

  I think grumpy was talking abut your idiotic use of famous Canadian police cases that were bungled (that are quite rare).

  I am still not as confident as some in the outcome of this civil suit. I think Anne Molloy has her work cut out for her and all I ask is she give Vicki a fair shake .... something this Janadab dude has failed to do in the Berry and Boer cases.

  And that is why I am so glad that for the first time in American history a Judge has told the WTS that they have a "common law duty" to report abuse or suspected abuse no matter what. Oh BTW abuse means physical, sexual or mental. Finally Survivors can be protected from people like Janadab who prefer to keep the image of the WTS "clean" rather than doing the right thing!

  hawk
• 

  Jonadab

  I assume you have read those letters based on your knowledge of the trial. How you can come on this db and start lying that it was the elders calling the shots in this Boer mess - it is absolutely disgusting.

  Hawkaw, you assume too much. I don't have your knowledge of the trial and I don't know about the letters. Care to enlighten me? I would also appreciate it if you would refrain from calling me a liar. I have tried to be civil despite your abusive reaction to my questions. I recognize that you have been very close to this case and have given Vicki support. I don't know your background, if you have ever been one of Jehovah's Witnesses or what your specific interest is in this trial. By your reaction I see a lot of pent up emotion being expressed. What the source of it is I don't know, but please try to be civil. I do have an interest in this matter and if you wouldn't mind sharing some more of your knowledge and insights about the case I would like to listen. I don't have 'inside' information, if that is what you think. All I know is what has been written in the newspapers.

  then a few months later Gower is moving up in the congregation

  What do you mean by 'moving up'? Are you saying that he has been appointed as a ministerial servant? Please explain.
• 

  hawkaw

  So lets see now ... you spew off about it being all the elders fault and then low and behold when the facts from the case are presented to you, you then flip flop around like a fish on the dock .... and start going on about not knowing about the case ... please .... even the papers reported the fact that a lot of the elders wanted to report the abuse but were prevented from doing so!

  Why am I so angry??? Because you come on this board and make accusations in the Berry trial that were NOT true and then you go on and spout out stuff about the Boer trial that was absolutely false.

  Shame on you ... how can you look at yourself in the mirror and start telling the world about how this is Jehovah's organization seeing it WAS Jehovah's organization CALLING the shots.

  On Monday September 17, 2002 .... Steve Brown took the stand. He is one of the elders "named" in the lawsuit. I was there at court that day.

  Out it all came ... how Frank Mott-Trille and all the other elders of the congregation except for Brown and one other wanted to report the abuse. What did WTS Bethel say .... nope don't report. Of course Brown thinks that these elders were wrong back then and of course he does hold a grudge against Mott-Trille. As I and the rest of world listened to Brown's evidence, it clearly showed he was under the direction of WTS Bethel through the whole thing. Of course Longhorn's evidence (elder from Toronto) was just as damaging. He actually phoned Children's Aid in Toronto and they told him to report the abuse. He then phoned Bethel and what did they say ... Vicki is to go back to Shelburne to be part of a judicial committee, let them deal with it and don't report it .... so Longhorn NEVER reported the abuse.

  And oh BTW there was much more evidence clearly showing how the whole thing was done and how the WTS Bethel (aka leadership in Canada and the USA) controlled the whole thing.

  Gee I can hardly wait for your comments on the Mike Moss scandal up in the Sault Ste. Marie. Who was it that told the police officer that the WTS would NOT help her in the investigation .... hey .... who was that ... oh yeah it was Glen Howe himself!!!!

  The Body of Elders letters are clear ... elders MUST phone Bethel and get advice on HOW to handle the situation. The policy is such that the elders are NOT to act alone. It is PLANNED and done in accordance with God's Chosen Organziation.

  Yet, YOU decide to tell this db about mistakes by certain elders being made .... an absolute FALSE statement and you know it too.

  And by the way ... when it comes to your little "we all make mistakes" crap .... the WTS leadership has refused to admit that they have made ANY mistakes in this mess and that's the problem ... the leadership can't face the facts that they blew it and won't take responsibility. So instead of taking responsibility the Watchtower leaders decide to spend more than $50,000 to defend Paul Berry during his criminal trial? Talk about taking sides before hearing all the evidence is in. Disgusting.

  For you to come on here and express views that are absolutely false is what is disgusting in my mind and I will continue in this manner until you STOP lying to this board. To find out that you have taken elders to task for certain things, but, when it comes to this ... something that endangers the life of little children even in your own congregations .... you won't do what it right and take "God's Chosen" leadership (the ones who say they are YOUR mediators to God) to task is friggin shameful. Shame on you ... shame ... shame .... shame.

  As for Gower Palmer moving up, I believe a short time after he had his ...... microphone privileges removed (which was admitted by Steve Brown in court after he told the court that the JC took really "strong action" against Palmer) ..... ALL of Gower's privileges were re-instated and then he was allowed more privileges in the congregation - my understanding is he pioneered but did not move to MS or elder. As was REPORTED IN THE PAPERS, Frank Mott-Trille's son was so up set seeing the entire congregation treating Gower Palmer like royalty after what he had done to Vicki ... all the while the congregation "shunned" Vicki. And of course here was Vicki's own grandmother refusing to even believe that her son had actually abused his daughter and thus, treated her like she was DEAD.

  I know your MO and what you are trying to do.

  I urge you to get off this board and quit hurting survivors the way you have. I urge you to actually uncover ALL of the facts and then start willing to admit to yourself that the Watchtower leadership has badly fumbled the ball on this. Of course that would take a lot of courage and that of course is something you are too scared to do because you would then have to doubt the Borg is actually God's chosen organization and of course that would mean there is no "happy ending" after the big "A" for YOU.

  hawk
• 

  metatron

  The principle concern of the Watchtower and the elders is the flock under their care?

  You, sir, are a base liar. I have been in this sick cult for MANY decades - a fact I'm ashamed of.

  The dominant concern of the Watchtower is its OWN SELFISH EXISTENCE and its OWN RULES.

  They are perfectly willing to sacrifice anything or anyone or any ethical principle to preserve their ugly misrule.

  They are willing to lie, to deceive, to waste people's lives (false prophecy, denigrating proper education, lying to authorities)

  They are willing to kill innocent people - bleeding to death - to "save face" in supporting their fraudulent blood policy

  -while quietly backing away from this false doctrine ( and where is it in the new 'Worship the True God' book?)

  While endlessly praising THEMSELVES as moralists, the fact is that the flock means nothing to them except as

  a source of money and power, a collection of statistics apart from Christian charity.

  You can inflate any number of fake hours "spent in the ministry" and record it on a field service report

  but you won't find any column for helping the poor and sick. Why? THEY DON'T COUNT!

  The current defense of child molesters is simply a new low for these gutter-rats

  and a new manifestation of how tragically deluded their thralls are. If they had any concern for the decades of damage they've done

  the words "We apologize, we were wrong" would be on their collective lips.

  And we all know they're far too proud and dishonest to ever plainly utter those words.

  metatron
• 

  shadow

  Is there any evidence (court transcripts, document scans, etc.) available to the public proving that Toronto or Brooklyn directed the elders in the Boer case to not report it?

  Also, how can it be verified that WTS spent $50k defending Berry? Was this raised locally, or money from Brooklyn?

  Thanks,
• 

  Uzzah

  Shadow:

  Court transcripts and by their own admission Canada Bethel directed the elders in all aspects of the handling of this case. Correspondence between Canada and Brooklyn discussing the case and the direction to be given was also submitted.

  Uzzah