Everybody loves Raymond

by Saintbertholdt 73 Replies latest watchtower scandals

  • Diogenesister
    Possibly both. The threads on the forum say that the accusations were made by a boy. Decades later a (now grown) man by the name of Mark Palo made the accusation on video.

    Well that alone TOTALLY blows the whole 'appointed by holy spirit'bs. Maybe the odd elder could slip through the net but a GB member?I thought big J could see the future, being omniscient n'all.


    If you are a believer in Jesus, which Ray seemed to be, you would be torn between warning/encouraging the other leaders of the WTBTS and fear of man. Many of us are now fading because we felt a responsibility to speak out, and we were hunted down because of it.

    I honestly thought that I could reason with JWs about wrong doctrines, I was gravely mistaken. Perhaps Ray was hopeful that the WTBTS could be better, and he felt that as an "anointed" one, he could affect change?

    Perhaps he just underestimated the hubris of the other GB members?


  • Wulf

    I definitely think Ray was involved in some sort of power struggle and lost. This is not an indictment of his character, in the sense that I think he was trying to change the org from within. If you read between the lines of CoC, he seems to have been behind the reformulation of the BoE and then the GB itself; those were huge moves organisationally speaking. Then the Aid book was some sort of attempt to align WT background thinking with secular scholarship. Unless he was lying about what he did, what kind of higher moves could he have made?

    I agree he never completely opens up about what went on. But it would be naive to assume he wasn't involved in trying to effect change, and I don't see why he should be criticised for that.

  • Diogenesister
    Franz wanted to rule the world like everybody else

    Ha ha So true! Except maybe if your Jesus Christ...no, wait.....didn't...?!

  • Wulf
    I'm going to be blunt here: I think Franz was making a power play for chief theologian in the late 70's after the 75 failure.

    I think he was probably already involved in "power struggles" of some sort ie. changing the power of the presidency and bringing in the GB. It didn't just start in the late 70s.

    John Aquila
    I had to step out for a while but I did catch this post. What do you mean by Franz making a power play? What's higher than a GB member? Elaborate please.

    By changing the nature of the organisation, instead of just being part of it.

  • Diogenesister
    If he accepted it the GB knew he would keep quiet. He would not have been DF'd and the shunning rules would never have been re-introduced.

    As is often stated on this forum:

    A good (or honourable)deed never goes unpunished!

    Interesting example of the complexity of lifes "moral"choices - for us JW black and white thinkers out there!

  • Diogenesister
    I'm a selfish bastard.

    Nah...challenging accepted norms is not selfish. You had your fingers burnt by the Watchtower - you have learnt well my son.

    As to your bastardy I wouldn't care to comment without your asking your mother.

  • flipper

    If Ray Franz was planning to betray the Watchtower and to write a book, even better in my opinion. I only hope there are more planning to do the same thing.

    The watchtower is a despicable organization which causes a great deal of harm. I'd lie to them in a New York minute.

    A lot of successful revolutions succeeded because the initial activities were subversive.

    Mrs. Flipper the heathen

  • steve2

    Why did Franz not draw attention to the procedure unless he was fine with it?

    You make many good points Saintbertholdt and your OP is a valuable contribution to the discussion around Ray Franz. I respect the man but I would never go so far as believing he should be made an ex-JW saint!

    We speak with the clarity of hindsight and a growing groundswell against the patriarchal investigative procedures and policies of asinine bodies of elders. Was the thinking on those policies and procedures so clear 20 to 30 years ago?

    Besides, Ray Franz had his life turned upside down and fought valiantly against the stereotyped image of how apostates "behaved". It was almost as if he was terrified lest he become the very type of person the organization had portrayed apostates to be.

    He could have easily 'done the dirty' on his uncle. But he did not want his book to be a variation on the atrocious ex-JW literature personified in the "I was a Watchtower Slave" literature evident up until the 1980s. Ray was an emotionally attuned man who cared what people thought of him. To some ex-JWs that made him a bit of a letdown because he could come across as being so careful in what he said, that it sounded at times almost apologetic. Call his manner the product of a man who faced several disappointments in succession.

    Moreover, he retained an almost automatic guardedness against more outspoken ex-JWs and even came across as a little interpersonally remote.

    Let's not forget he was booted out close to age 60, after a lifetime in the organization. He had a smorgasbord of stuff he could have used against the organization. But he didn't.

  • OnTheWayOut

    I am with Mrs. Flipper on this. I have always said that if the G.B. wanted to sneak off with all the money to some Caribbean island that won't extradite, I would help them pack. Whatever works against Watchtower and toward the personal freedom of the members is good by me.

    I know this thread implies that Ray wasn't originally intent on helping people, but rather helping himself. All I know for sure is that his first book did not have any heavy laden resent toward Watchtower like it would have were I the author. Regardless of what got him to write it and to write in such manner, it turned out to be just what vast numbers of members needed for their own personal crisis of conscience.

    I think the end results speak for themselves. Ray did a wonderful thing with his first book and he never created a following for himself.

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