Everybody loves Raymond

by Saintbertholdt 73 Replies latest watchtower scandals

  • dropoffyourkeylee

    Having read both of Franz's books, more than once, I owe a lot to him for giving a structure to my discomfort with the religion I was raised in. Even if his motives were not pristine, he has my gratitude.

    If he and Dunlop had been successful, the WT might be very different than it is now, maybe even tolerable.

    The Worldwide Church of God did an about face some years ago, so it is possible such a change could happen in the WT, but I won't hold my breath.

  • Introvert 2
    Introvert 2
    Question : Did Raymond Franz really post here on the forum while still alive ? Would love to read some of his posts. I do recall reading something about how attached he was to their pet dog, was quite touching. Love the guy.
  • blondie
    No Ray did not post on here....But he did answer questions sent to him at www.commentarypress.com
  • Introvert 2
    Introvert 2
    Ok great thanks Blondie !
  • Witness 007
    Witness 007

    I think he stayed in because he had invested soo much in the JW.ORG. After writting the Aid book he must have had huge doubts (like 607 bce) Where would he go...no house money anything. He played himself down in his first book...but clearly he had "apostate" views but was waiting for "the bullet" to hit him...hard to leave your "family" of brothers.

  • 3rdgen

    Just a few random thoughts.........

    When hubby (now an avid "Apostate) first was leaving Watchtower he was heavily critical of RF. He thought that Ray didn't push hard enough against his uncle and the others who opposed reform of the WBT$.

    My reply to that was: "What did you expect ONE man to do?" He was outnumbered. Had Ray's ideas of a kinder, more gentle Borg been permanently embraced I'm not sure he or I would have left so I'm glad it went down the way it did. If Ray hadn't been motivated to write COC (regardless of his motives) how many of us would have known about the Mexico/Malawi scandal? That alone was enough for me to realize there was NO Holy Spirit operating on the Borg.

    Another thought regarding RF taking all of the correspondence and docs that he did: I was going through my elderly mothers pictures and keepsakes I found letters form the WTBT$ going back to the year 1941. She saved EVERYTHING with a Watchtower letterhead as it is practically sacred to her. Even when she received an unfavorable (to her) answer from them, she kept it. I think RF may have simply saved all things Watchtower related.

    In any case, I agree with those who think it really doesn't matter what Ray's motives were in writing COC I'm just glad he did. As far as ISOCF goes I have never bothered to read it. The mental freedom I gained from reading his first book led me to do enough research not to want or need the crutch of "belief".

  • blondie

    Ray and Cynthia were on the road for many years finally as a pioneer and eventually as a DO in Puerto Rico. He was not in contact in a familial way with his uncle. Ray's father was not at Bethel and communication with his brother was limited. No sharing of scriptural truths around the family table. There were some things that happened that made he go hmmm...especially when Cynthia got sick in PR and the emotional support was lacking.

    When they were called to Bethel, although being in the same place, Ray and Cynthia continued to have little contact with Ray's uncle except on rare administrative events. Up until 1971 the GB was made up of the same people on the WTS Board of Directors of which Fred Franz was a member, but not Ray. It was a private little group of 7 I think. No much chance of moving up until 1971. If any one out there was a newbie elder, they know how much input they were allowed and if it wasn't on the current thinking, they were shut down.

    His bible research led him to see that the WTS could improve and using that research, and writing in the publications, he did try to encourage bible thinking. Ray was not the only person at Bethel with the hope that good ideas from the bible would prevail and that is why in their not yet forbidden informal small group studies that was where the emphasize was place, on the bible, not on WT publications except where the bible supported it. But the GB then sense that these groups were trying to undermine the WTS and the GB and without proof, they started a witch hunt.

    Ray was shocked at this and how his friends at Bethel were treated. If you think JCs at the congregation level are bad, what happened then had no pretend basis on the bible. They did not DF him or Cynthia but they had to leave Bethel with $10,000 to provide a home, etc. Ray was only around 60 then, younger than I am now. Neither he or Cynthia had enough credits in Social Security to qualify. So Ray worked 10 years until he did qualify. He depended on kind jws to find him a job, a small place to rent. I never asked how medical needs were met. Then the brother who helped decided to DA himself. As Ray and Cynthia's landlord and employer, he still had to have contact with them. At the time they had dinner with that da'd brother, the rule that having contact with a da'd person was grounds for df'ing did not exist yet. The WTS set up that policy and then back-dated it to df ray. Ray did not da himself. Interestingly, Cynthia also had eaten with this da'd brother, but she was never met with or df'd.

    As the WTS revealed itself more and more to Ray and Cynthia, there was no desire on the part of either of them to go back. Just like many of us, it has taken several years of eye-opening events for us to leave. Why not for Ray and Cynthia? One GB member when asked about new scriptural ideas, picked up the magazines on his table in his Bethel room newly delivered, "This is where I learn new things from Jehovah."

    So I figure unless we have/had a family member on the GB and were on the GB ourselves, how could we know what Ray and Cynthia knew and when they knew it and when they understood it.

  • freddo

    I just recently bought a copy of CoC. I have dipped in to it at several points and have found that what Ray Franz says happened has the absolute ring of truth to it. The lack of bitterness and ranting by Ray makes his words all the more powerful.

    It has cemented my desire to remain mentally distanced from the "self-preserving at all costs" and the "self-aggrandising" of the governing body. Any good motive they have ever had has become submerged into these two cravings.

    Thank you Ray. And thank you to those who tell about him on the internet!

  • Lostandfound

    So many know so much about a dead persons reasoning, how many knew this man, communicated with him?

    On his files etc, when a US President leaves office every piece of paper goes with him, why would RF leave his files for the GB to plunder?

    I recall myself at a cong level the fear of complying and have no doubt that RF saw firsthand how the other GB members acted as little dictators

    I did not get out of Borg for some time because of fear of consequences so will not criticise RF for his line of least resistance.

    I did correspond briefly with RF and can say I saw no evidence of power play or seeking to establish himself as the focus for resistance to the WT

    Trying to define the chickens liver is as impossible as trying to define Franz motives

  • ThomasThomas

    I have had a question for a while now.

    Did Ray Franz or anyone else ever discuss the implications on his "anointing" that apostatizing from the org would bring?

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