by Simon 50 Replies latest forum announcements
Uncle PunkyIt always amuses me how there is a propensity to see the 'end time' as relevant to our lifetime.
This^^^^
I've yet to find anyone start a religious group and claim to have insight that A, B or C is going to happen, which is super important because it will be the precursor to The End™ happening, but that it will occur at any other time but the one in which the author is living.
I've yet to find anyone start a religious group and claim to have insight that ... it will occur at any other time but the one in which the author is living.
Even if you believe that there will come an "end" (and I do), it seems staggeringly arrogant to assume you and your generation above all others are going to be the ones to see it and to usher in the great "new world", build the foundation of the future, or whatever. The timing is God's not man's, and Jesus warned against trying to set dates or "run ahead" of God in that way, yet almost every generation of supposedly Christian leaders thinks it's "their" time.
It's also why I was never convinced by the proclaiming of the "millions now living will never die" message, as it was still being taught for decades, albeit not as explicitly as at in the Rutherford era.
The second thing that put me off believing the "any day now" hype is being aware of all the generations of previous Bible Students and JWs who have lived, grown old and died waiting with such certainty for their expected passage into the new world. In common with most of us who are or were active JWs for at least a few years, I've known elderly ones who have now been dead for 5, 10 or more years who long ago admitted to surprise at being frail, ill and at death's door when they thought they would stride into the new world while in their 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s... etc.
i need to get a bible. They are useful to wedge under a car wheel on a hill.
I've yet to find anyone start a religious group and claim to have insight that A, B or C is going to happen, which is super important because it will be the precursor to The End™ happening, but that it will occur at any other time but the one in which the author is living.
Isaac Newton, who was extremely into his Bible prophecy, apparently predicted the end for 2060, or, to put it more precisely, that 2060 was the latest date it could possibly be. If I recall correctly, this date was arrived at by adding 1260 day/years from Revelation to the coronation of Charlemagne in 800 AD.
Charlemagne also figured in the Nazi political eschatology as the so-called first Reich was allegedly dated from Charlemagne in 800 to 1800, the second Reich under Bismarck in 1871 to 1917, and the Third Reich from 1933, which was intended to last 1000 years, but was defeated after just 12 years, in 1945.
A few years ago we had a poster (Named: God Rulez-?, or whoever) who wrote excessively long posts, disputing every other poster with page after page of all sorts of Scriptural and philosophical arguments. He didn't allow for other posters to express their opinions without being told they were either stupid or ignorant on religious matters. Only he was fortunate enough to have the deep knowledge required to deal with these subjects that everyone else was lacking. Ultimately, he was forced out, I think.
Now someone else comes along carrying a name of various letters and numbers reviving such behavior. He (or, she) pretends to be smarter and more knowledgeable than every other person found present in this forum. Consistently long posts and numerous endless quotes are used to dominate the narrative. Everyone else is being told they are being 'owned by their Boss' (WT Society?) for expressing a different opinion. No one else can keep up with this individual.
I wonder if this recent situation is the one provoking the interest of Simon. Or, is it something else?
I agree entirely with Simon's O.P. and applaud him removing "preachy" stuff. For me it is pointless anyway, I am a non-theist, but I have made a very long and deep study of the Bible, and I know what it is, and is not.
The Bible is a collection of Writings by men, for men, from a few Centuries BCE up until the early 2nd Century C.E. It has been redacted and edited and generally played around with.
The Bible has been totally discredited as an Authority upon anything, so firing scriptures at people who know the above, is just really silly.
Didn`t someone once say something like the Bible is an instrument that anyone can play a tune on to whatever they fancy ? or something along those lines.?
I have lived a long good life ,i don`t need a bible to tell me how to live ,and I dont need a bible to teach me about morals that I already have,
A long-standing Protestant dictum, often ignored by clergy, is Sola Scriptura. The Bible alone. Our recent discussion of the Trinity doctrine wasn't a Bible discussion; it was a discussion of philosophy, church doctrine without reference to the Bible's actual content and ultimately stultifying. I agree with Simon. Things like that get out of hand.
I already know what the gaggle of 'Church Fathers' wrote. I do not care what a Papal Encyclical said.
I am not now nor have I ever been a member ... umm I've never been one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I do not belong to any church. But I do have academic standards. The recent discussion seldom met any sort of academic standard. Much of it was an exercise in academic malpractice.
I can tolerate things like that. Mostly, though, it was like watching a train wreck.
I cannot tolerate our "prophets" who think they're God's spokesman to wayward Witnesses. ... Who think they are clued into modern prophetic fulfillments. Just stop it. Get some counseling.
Journeyman I always found this somewhat arrogant - to believe that you and your generation are the one that will see "the end", that your generation specifically will not have to see death (whether that be due to 'rapture' to heaven or transfer into an early paradise) despite all the billions before you who have gone to the grave.
That's the word... arrogance. I'm sure Christians don't have the monopoly on this sort of thing, but relating to them specifically (being the group Im familiar with) I would have thought Christ's injunction to show humility & patience, would at least give them pause....?!
Slim Isaac Newton, who was extremely into his Bible prophecy, apparently predicted the end for 2060, or, to put it more precisely, that 2060 was the latest date it could possibly be. If I recall correctly, this date was arrived at by adding 1260 day/years from Revelation to the coronation of Charlemagne in 800 AD.
Wow!! Fascinating. Well one thing about Issac Newton, no one can say he didn't break the mould! I certainly wouldn't be very willing to dismiss anything he said too lightly... 🤔😬
I always found this somewhat arrogant - to believe that you and your generation are the one that will see "the end", that your generation specifically will not have to see death
A good comment. I have observed that end-time predictions often share a common theme. The person teaching the endtime is of the older generation (age 50-60). The believers/victims are younger (ages 15-50). The end is taught to come about 40 years hence; that is within the lifetime of the believing group. There is a 'call to action' that is believable to the victims, and the teacher is just old enough to think he might live to the end. William Miller, Charles Russell, and Fred Franz all fit this pattern. The problem is that it is difficult to prove wrong other than to wait 40 years, but the perpetrator is usually dead by then and the believers/victims are left scrambling for explanations.
