Completing the Scan of All WT Publications - Bibles List

by ILoveTTATT2 50 Replies latest jw friends

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  darkspilver

  Sorry for the delay - not sure if anyone is actually interested in this, but here goes anyway....
  

  objavitelj said:
  

  Difference between first NWT edition and all later revisions is in Matthew 24:45:
  original: Who really is a faithful and discreet slave
  later: Who really is the faithful and discreet slave
  

  I said no, that is WRONG

  BUT then, as proof objavitelj linked to an audio of a talk GB member Gerrit Lösch's apparently gave in Mexico in 2009 where he says in part:

  "If you look up the first edition of the NWT it said this way - "Who really is A...", it didn't say "THE faithful and discreet slave..." ... But in the next... in the revision of the NWT this was corrected"
  

  I still say that it is WRONG (but thanks for the link to his talk!)
  

  I ask myself - does it seem right? does it smell right? does it fit in with what we know?... And, for me, it doesn't.

  This is why...
  

  Background
  

  New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures was released in English in New York on Wednesday 2 August 1950.

  The teaching of the F&D Slave is very important to the GB - it is really what gives them the 'authority' that they have.

  A key aspect for Losch's talk was highlighting that it is wrong to think "that every individual Christian can be A faithful and discreet slave."
  

  
  FIRST - I don't think the A-or-THE (mis)-translation has been discussed by the WT in print - if it was an 'issue' that early print versions of the NWT had actually used 'A', I would have expected it to have been discussed in print.
  
  SECOND - I understand that, prior to the release of the NWT, the WT was using two main translations, both of which they where printing:

  The King James which says: "Who then is A faithful and wise servant"
  The American Standard which says: "Who then is THE faithful and wise servant"

  The 'default' translation used (as stated in later editions of the 1950 WTs) was the King James Version
  

  YET - the last time Matt 24:45 was quoted PRIOR to the release of the NWT was:

  Watchtower 1 August 1950, page 228, paragraph 5
  

  5 “Who then is THE faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath set over his household, to give them their food in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, that he will set him over all that he hath.” (Matt. 24:45-47, Am. Stan. Ver.)
  

  IF the NWT translation committee was going to use 'A' rather 'THE', why - in the lead up to its release - did they specifically decide to use the American Standard translation of 'THE' rather that the 'default' King James translation of 'A' for the above?

  THEN the next time Matt 24:45 was quoted (and after the release of the NWT) was:

  Watchtower 15 October 1950, page 387 paragaph 9
  

  Modern versions render several Greek words by “household”, including the word which occurs only once, at Matthew 24:45. But here the new version makes a striking distinction, rendering the text: “Who really is THE faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics [oi·ke·tei'a] to give them their food at the proper time?” (NW)
  

  Fascinating that it is the NWT that is used - and it uses 'THE' - this would have needed to have been taken from the very early edition - date-wise this magazine would have needed to have been printed almost as the August Convention was happening (if not slightly before and shipped straight after) to allow for distribution in time to the congregations.

  This shows that even the VERY EARLIEST editions of the NWT used 'the' and NOT 'a'
  
  THIRD - according to Losch it is a translation issue rather than a typo issue

  During the initial print run, it would not be too surprising to have typos picked up and corrected by proof-readers - but it would be surprisng to have an actual translation issue picked up.
  
  FOURTH - Losch is 'two-times' removed from the actual 'events'

  Age-wise he is too young, and location-wise he was based in Europe not North America

  BUT remeber that he is now a GB member, and unlike rank-and-file publishers - he will have access to all the original paper-work from the 1950 translation committee

  It is therefore possible that an early version (but before it was printed) of the NWT used 'A' rather than 'THE' - and it is this that Losch was refering too - (but then we also need to consider the Second point above).
  
  FIFTH - the 'chinese whispers' effect on Losch's talk

  Losch first gave this talk back at the 2002 Annual Meeting, and it appears he has given it a number of times following this

  https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/40556/seems-that-yall-having-impact

  The problem is, everytime the story it re-told, it can slightly change.....
  
  SIXTH - I believe Losch stopped giving this talk after the following article appeared in the 2011 Yearbook?

  Yearbook 2011, pages 9 to 10
  https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/302011018
  ‘TRACING ALL THINGS WITH ACCURACY’

  (this was the article when the GB admitted that, after more 'fact-checking', some stories and accounts that had been printed in the WT where apparently not actually correct and are therefore no longer used - example given was Sir Isaac Newton and the model of the solar system - "who made it?" "nobody!")
  
  SEVENTH - below is a picture of my 1950 first edition NWT of Christian Scriptures - clearly shows 'THE'
  
  
  
  
  THEREFORE, in view of the foregoing, I say this is a FALSE story

  I believe what has happened is that Losch - who has been able to access and read all the original translation committee's paperwork - has mixed things up a bit between the 'working' versions being produced and the final version, what was actually printed for the public - and then, in re-telling the story a number of times, the story has slightly changed to imply the first printed edition for the public.
  
• 

  objavitelj

  interesting observation...
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  Disillusioned JW

  There probably are two different versions/editions of the 1950 edition New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures (but with the earliest edition published for only a very brief period of time). I think that because of the following. I have one which on the copyright page says "COPYRIGHT, 1950" without saying what edition (such as First, Second, Revised, 1951, etc.) it is and without mentioning what printing it is. In that one the Appendix on page 786 has paragraphs saying that 1 John 5:7, 8 contain spurious wording. The 1951 revised edition also says that in the Appendix. But at one time I saw (and I think I once owned) a 1950 edition which did not have that content about 1 John 5:7, 8 in the Appendix. I thus think there were two 1950 editions. There was also an edition prior to 1951 which said "Second Edition". For example the 1951 WT book called "What Has Religion Done for Mankind?" in its list of Bible translations used says regarding the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures, that it quotes in the book, that it is the "2nd edition". I noticed that some of the quotes from that 2nd edition have different wording than that used in the 1951 revised edition and different from my copy of the 1950 edition.
  

  The 1963 compilation edition of the 6 volumes used the 1951 revised edition. But their are some differences from that 1963 edition in comparison with the prior individual six volume. I noticed that many of the maps from those volumes were excluded in the compilation edition (which page 608 of the Proclaimers book says was a "special students' edition") and there were some other differences. But a number of the WT books (such as the "Life Everlasting" book) which in the back advertised the compilation edition inaccurately said that edition (which was called the "Large-Print" edition) "contains the original edition of the" NWT.

  The 1942 WT KJV (I think my copy is the 1942 edition but it doesn't say "1942" on the title page or copyright page) besides having the scripture text, chapter summaries, cross references, and marginal notes of a Holman edition of the KJV also contains WT specific content. The page prior to the contents page is headed "Important Explanation" and one thing it mentions is 'JEHOVAH: Wherever the words "GOD" and "LORD" occur in all capital letters, the name in the original Hebrew is Jehovah".' In the back there is a section called "God's Word on Vital Subjects" which has a list of quotes of scripture texts (including from non-KJV translations) pertaining to WT doctrines and practices, such as "Ordination", "Commission to Preach", and "Manner of Preaching". After that section are 4 maps prepared by the WT.

  The WT's ASV has a Concordance which was prepared by the WT (the Proclaimers book says it was prepared by the WT). The Proclaimers book says that the WT ASV was the first to include a concordance to the ASV, but that claim of the WT is false. I have more than one copy of a "Teacher's Edition" (one which includes scripture cross-references, unlike the one published by the WT) of the ASV published by Thomas Nelson & Sons. That edition has a Bible encyclopedia/dictionary and a concordance of the ASV (American Revised Bible, Standard Edition) along with it and its concordance has more than twice as many pages as the WT's. That concordance by Thomas Nelson says "Copyright, 1900, By Thomas Nelson & Sons" and thus clearly was published long before the WT, thus the WT's was not the first. The WT's printed edition of the ASV includes 4 maps prepared by the WT.

  The KJV, ASV, and Byington Bible included on the WT's online library seems to exclude all of the alternate readings, all of the alternate renderings, and all of the footnotes/end notes of the WT's print editions of those Bibles.
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  dropoffyourkeylee

  I don't recall this thread from four years ago, so I am reading through it the first time. First, I have a copy of the 1950 first edition of the NWT Greek Scriptures and it indeed has 'the' in the verse at Matt 24:45, as dsp demonstrated. If there was some limited edition with 'a' in that verse, I haven't seen one. I doubt it even existed in print. I think Losch was simply mistaken, or at most was referring to some pre-publication draft that he may have access to.

  What I think this thread discussion is missing is that at the time of translation, the main 'enemy' of the WT were the Bible Student groups (the 'evil slave class') who believed that Pastor Russell was 'that Servant'. This was a big issue from the '20s into the '60s, and there was a lot of bantering back in forth between the writers of the WT and the writers of the various Bible Students. I used to have some of Paul S L Johnson's books, and you wouldn't believe how many pages he devoted to this inane subject.

  The WT belief they espoused at the time (1950) was that the 'faithful and discreet slave' was not an individual, certainly not Russell, but rather was the faithful and discreet slave 'class', which they interpreted as entire body of anointed, all of them. The application of this verse to the Governing Body only, and not to all anointed, is a relatively recent change in doctrine.
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  Disillusioned JW

  I now have confirmation of the accuracy of the following which I said in my prior post. "But at one time I saw (and I think I once owned) a 1950 edition which did not have that content about 1 John 5:7, 8 in the Appendix. I thus think there were two 1950 editions." Note that by that I mean two editions (the latter being a minor revision of the original First Edition, and that that revision of the First Edition did not likely state itself as a revision) before the edition of 1950 which states itself as the "Second Edition". The confirmation is as follows.

  The WT Library CD-ROM of 1999 says the following in the November 15, 1950 issue of the WT in the section called "Addenda On 1 John 5:7, 8".

  'CUT THIS OUT AND PASTE IT

  in your copy of the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures in the blank space on page 786:

  ADDENDA ON 1JOHN 5:7, 8:

  Since release of the New World Translation on August 2, 1950, at the international assembly of Jehovah's witnesses at Yankee Stadium, New York city, there has been widely published religious criticism over its rendering of 1 John 5:7, 8. Therefore we append the following as a suitable footnote to those verses appearing on page 700:
  
  1 John 5:7, 8: "For there are three witness bearers, the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement."
  
  This rendering is according to the Greek texts by Westcott and Hort (1881) and by D. Eberhard Nestle (18th edition of 1948) and by José María Bover, S.J. (1943) and by Augustinus Merk, S.J. (6th edition of 1948).

  After "witness bearers" the cursive Manuscripts No. 61 (of 15th or 16th century) and No. 629 (in Latin and Greek, of 14th to 15th century) and Vg C.S add the words: "In heaven, the Father, the Word and the holy spirit; and these three are one. 8 And there are three witness bearers on earth." But these words are omitted by ... MSS. and the Latin New Testament according to the edition of St. Jerome, by Wordsworth and White, edition of 1911.'

  [My quote includes "..." because I was unable to copy and paste certain characters of the source onto this website.]

  dropoffyourkeylee, does your copy of the First Edition include content about 1 John 5:7, 8 on page 786? If it does then it is not the original edition of the First Edition, but an revision/edit of it (in which your copy does not declare itself to be a revision/edit).
  
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  Disillusioned JW

  The WT sometimes make changes in the wording of some of their publications, without stating that any changes were made. Such has been demonstrated. If darkspilver's and dropoffyourkeylee's copy of the First Edition is in fact not the first printing (or at least the original edition) of the First Edition, then it is possible that the first printing of the First Edition did not have 'the' in the verse at Matt 24:45.
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  dropoffyourkeylee

  I just pulled my 1950 NWT Greek Scriptures off the shelf and it does not have the mentioned information in the appendix. The last entry in the appendix is on the subject 'Tartarus'. This suggests it is an earlier printing of the 1950 Greek Scriptures. It has the verbiage 'the faithful and discreet slave' in Matt 24:45.

  
  
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  Disillusioned JW

  Thanks dropoffyourkeylee.

  I notice that the 1950 and 1951 Christian Greek Scriptures have a cross reference to Luke 12:42. In both editions Luke 12:42 says "Who really is a faithful steward, a discreet one, whom his master will appoint over his body of attendants to keep giving them their measure of food supplies at the proper time?" Note that is says "a faithful" instead of 'the faithful". Perhaps objavitelj and the governing body member (Gerrit Lösch) have the pre-1961 NWT translation of Luke 12:42 crossed in their minds with that of Matthew 24:45. In contrast the NWT of 1961 (as as well as of 1970, 1971, 1981, and 1984) at Luke 12:42 says "the faithful steward, the discreet one".
  
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  blondie

  What an undertaking, and a sacrifice by you.
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  Disillusioned JW

  Hi blondie. Welcome back to making posts on this site.