THIS is how Jehovah operates? Examining GB Jefffrey Winder's words

by Terry 33 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Vidiot

    I remember a long-ago conversation with my then-elder dad about the times JWs had gotten it wrong.

    He explained that whatever mistaken belief they may have had at any given time was nevertheless necessary to maintain organizational unity.

    I was old enough that that bothered me, but at least he was forthright about it.

  • TonusOH

    I think either Russell or Rutherford used a similar explanation to cover for the disappointment after 1914 came and went without the end of the world. Or maybe it was to cover for the 1925 mess. They used Miller's "wrong expectation at the right time" excuse to claim that they weren't completely wrong, and that they meant well so it shouldn't be held against them.

    I'm not sure if it was better or worse than gaslighting the rank and file, the way they did after 1975. I also wonder how it would have worked, if they had said "we got it wrong, but look at all the growth-- clearly Jehovah blessed our efforts" after 1975.

  • Rattigan350

    When it comes to 1975, they based that off what they thought were 7000 year creative days. That idea went back to the 1820 with Henry Finnes Clinton and to William Miller. So we can't really blame Fred Franz for that. It was open ended and the numbers pointed towards the future. But they didn't understand. They all didn't understand that the creative days were not 7000 years long. The six days of creation listed were actually 6 24 hour days, but the events within encompassed millions of years.

    As for 1925, I had totally forgotten what the calculations were that Rutherford used. That shows how insignficant it is.

    But as far as the old books go; I can understand how they say get rid of them and don't use them because it is a totally different organization from the one that produced those books.

  • Big Dog
    Big Dog

    Like I said in my last post, this is how they all operate. Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, and the fringe lunatics like the WTBS. From the very beginning there have been arguments, schisms, inconsistencies, retractions, and on and on and on.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again, you either believe in the magic or you don't. The rest is window dressing, interesting conversation over coffee and reliant on faith and not verifiable to any significant extent.

    All of the apologists and the tortured logic applied to scripture and prophecy, if anything in my opinion, make people less likely to believe than to do so.

  • Terry


    1. Must be DISCREET
    2. Must deliver "food" at the PROPER time

    When applied to a person in charge of sensitive information, "discreet" means the individual is able to handle matters with care and diligence, avoiding any actions that could compromise the information. They are able to juggle multiple tasks and responsibilities with tact and prudence, ensuring the security of the information.

    Declaring the "End of 6,000 years of human existence" to be 1975 is NOT discreet and NOT the proper time!
    How many JW's are aware that this exact same "End of 6,000 years of human existence" was ALSO
    applied to 1925?
    Rutherford's belief that the patriarchs' return would occur in 1925 was based on his calculations of the Jewish jubilee, counting forward 3500 years from 1575 BCE

    CHRONOLOGY took the place of PYRAMIDOLOGY as the 'shiny object' of fascination.

  • Rattigan350

    Terry is good at looking in the rear-view mirror and making obvious statement about the past.

    Here is an obvious statement about the past:

    When the forecast of 1925 failed and then 1975 failed the wheels didn't fall off the religion or the organization.

    I just don't understand the point of rehashing these things over and over again. Rutherford is dead, Franz is dead. Knorr is dead. Focus on the living.

  • Terry
    Rattigan35017 minutes ago

    Terry is good at looking in the rear-view mirror and making obvious statement about the past.

    Here is an obvious statement about the past:

    When the forecast of 1925 failed and then 1975 failed the wheels didn't fall off the religion or the organization.

    Supernatural authority claims made by religions can be broadly categorized into two types: 1. Claims that are testable and falsifiable, often involving predictions; and 2. Claims that are untestable, relying solely on faith or opinion.

    The leaders of the Watchtower religion fall into the first category, as they have made testable and falsifiable predictions. To assess their motives, we can consider two possibilities: 1. Honest mistakes, and 2. Dishonest mistakes. Detectives, when investigating a crime, examine the history of "persons of interest" to understand their character and tendencies, as past actions often provide valuable insights.

    Let's look at some examples from the Watchtower religion's history:

    Pastor Russell based his chronology on Pyramidology, using measurements inside the Giza Pyramid to make specific date and event predictions. When these predictions failed, he did not apologize, like William Miller did after his incorrect predictions in 1843 and 1844. Instead, Pastor Russell changed the measurements and republished his works with new calculations. This behavior strongly suggests deception.

    Why mention Pyramidology? Pastor Russell used it to convince gullible individuals to buy his books, read his columns, and support his ministry. He even altered the date of the Babylonian captivity from 606 B.C.E. to 607 B.C.E. to fit his narrative, revealing a lack of honesty.

    Fred Franz, often considered an oracle, used his imaginative chronology and biblical interpretations to promote the idea of the New World Paradise beginning in 1925. This prediction failed, but it was later reused for 1975 under a new president, Nathan Knorr, with similarly disastrous results.

    The concept of "New Light" in the Watchtower religion was borrowed from the Seventh Day Adventists.

    Now, let's follow the logical chain of reasoning:

    1. Certain individuals are drawn to end-of-the-world predictions based on scripture, especially when presented with a plausible rationale. They readily believe in such schemes.

    2. When these predictions fail, about one-third of these true believers lose faith and leave.

    3. The hardcore true believers, however, remain steadfast despite evidence to the contrary, forming the foundation for a new population of fanatics.

    4. New recruits are attracted by the promise of new, exciting "proofs" of the end of the world, perpetuating the cycle.

    5. With each failure, the weak believers depart, and the fanatics strengthen their delusion, deepening their cognitive dissonance.

    6. The history of the Watchtower religion reveals that only the hardcore adherents endure, while those who become disillusioned are labeled apostates or disfellowshipped. They remain unheard until the advent of the personal computer.

    7. The religion discards old teachings and replaces them with new ones, fostering constant fear-mongering and denying past failures.

    The ultimate conclusion is that new followers are kept in the dark about the religion's past failures. This lack of awareness prevents them from making rational decisions that would otherwise be shocking and repugnant. The history of "New Light" is a tale of deception, false chronology, fear of Armageddon, fear of apostates, suppression of information, and promises of paradise.

  • Beth Sarim
    Beth Sarim

    We don't know.




    We can assume


    No doubt.

    In other words, we don't have a clue, but you must listen to us, we are the mouthpiece of God.

    LOL, Okkkkkkay, ROFL.

  • blondie
  • Beth Sarim
    Beth Sarim

    "I thought we had the answers to those questions"

    "We don't know"

    ROFL,,,,as they speak for God.

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