D
Thanks for starting this thread. Very interesting. I don't believe that God is bound by time or anything that we percieve. Time is just our perception of something, after all.
Metatron, that book sounds great! Thanks.
Sirona
Does God exist outside of Time?
by D wiltshire 60 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Introspection
D, another quicky - one way to look at it is that maybe it's not so much that God is outside time, but time is inside God - like a thought is in your mind, but your mind is not so much "outside of thought." (or brain, whatever you like)
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D wiltshire
Subjects like this deserve a wide variety of answers. Our WT days would forbid us to even think any different thoughts than handed to us by a bunch of narrow minded bigots(GB).
Thank you all for your contribution.
Many physist do think about the Meta-physical exspecially when we get to quantum, and the anthromorpic principle.
Abbadon,
Nice to hear from you, and yes it has been a while. When I refurr to God yes I think of the Biblical one but I don't want to limit our discussion to what is popular interpetations of this God. Science is also a way we can learn about Him, as Einstein ideas about "time" has lead many to different veiws of time and God. If we are to have a meaningful discussion all ideas should be judged on their own merits. I don't think we can be dogmatic on this subject because there is much we don't know, cautiously speculative perhaps. Even the atheist should be able to participate, as we realize both sides are not on solid ground, scientically.
Intro,
D, another quicky - one way to look at it is that maybe it's not so much that God is outside time, but time is inside God - like a thought is in your mind, but your mind is not so much "outside of thought." (or brain, whatever you like)
You have some interesting shall I say Zen ideas. I think a lot of these ancient ideas may have some truth to them. Quantum theory and a non local universe may even give support to it. Some phyicsist feel that subatomic particles have "mind" and that shared origin(Big bang) makes them have a universal mind(perhaps). Many phyicsist these days sound a bit mystical if you ask me, exspecially when you get into quantum theory.
Could it be that our brains not only gives us cosciousness from electrochemical processes by perhaps more on the quantum level(as observed by experiment on subatomic particles). The things science is finding out about matter is indeed puzzeling and weird to say the least.
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Big Tex
If you accept the premise that God created the universe and everything in it, then it is reasonable to believe that God does exist outside of time and space as we understand it. Consider: time is measured by the number of rotations of the earth as it rotates around the sun (there are many other forms of time measurement and time increments, but this is the most basic). Therefore it is reasonable to believe that before the Big Bang there was no time. If (and that is a big if I grant you) this hypothesis is correct, then it is also reasonable to believe God exists outside of this dimension. A new theory in quantum mechanics proposes an infinite number of dimensions, so it is possible that God, the angels, the Devil and heaven exist in a place outside this dimension. Travel between the two would therefore be interdimensional and instananeous (you will be transformed in the twinkling of an eye). Time would then have no meaning to God (one day is as a thousand years).
As humans we live a linear existence with time always moving in one direction: forward. That would not necessarily be the case with God if time had no meaning. Time would exist in front of and around him. It would be natural then to follow each day of every creature who has ever lived. If time has no meaning, God could exist with the dinosaurs with the Jews of the Bible and with us today simultaneously. It is a completely different way of thinking, but if you take the question to its logical conclusion it is possible.
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rem
It would be natural then to follow each day of every creature who has ever lived. If time has no meaning, God could exist with the dinosaurs with the Jews of the Bible and with us today simultaneously. It is a completely different way of thinking, but if you take the question to its logical conclusion it is possible.
If you take this hypothesis to its logical conclusion it completely destroys any notion of free will.
rem
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Big Tex
How so? I must be dense (not the first time) but I don't know how God existing outside of time would abrogate free will.
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rem
Big Tex,
If God is in all of time simultaneously then that means the future is already recorded and immutable. This means that humans would not have free will to change their future. The only remedy to this situation would be if there were an infinite amount of universes for each particle in the universe, but this solution and all its implications just boggles my mind too much.
rem
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ballistic
If God created time, how can he exist inside of it? How could he even experience a LATERAL, serial existance as we do? And if he could, why would he subject himself to it, "hurling himself down" into our world?
Surely also the omnipotence of God requires him to be outside of space and time? i.e. he is the alpha and the omega, the begining and the end. Are you going to say he subjected himself to our world's scientific laws AND THEN found a scientific method of predicting the future??? That would be nonsense in my opinion.
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Big Tex
rem
I hear what you're saying, and I'm certainly not saying I'm correct only that I am trying to use logic and reason to explain something that is ultimately impossible to prove.
Time would exist in front of and around him
That's different than saying God is in all time simultaneously. If you can imagine that if God is not subject to our laws of space and time as we understand them, then it is not only possible but necessary for him to exist in a state where time is not linear. If time is not linear (i.e. moving in one direction) then it is reasonable to believe that one could move in and out of time and space as one pleased. Again, time would have no meaning to God.
This is an oversimplified example, but imagine space and time, and our existence in this dimension (to God) as being like a program or movie on DVD. He could go anyplace in that DVD at any time in any manner he chooses. If this is in any way accurate, then God would have the capability of accurately predicting the future through prophecy (remember it would all be happening in front of him at once) or listening to every prayer of every human. As I say there is really no way to ever prove any of this, short of God himself clueing us in. But, to me, it's an exercise in logic and reason and kind of fun to speculate.
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D wiltshire
Just a few thoughts about present as in past present and future.
Here's an Einstien quote:
"The distinction between past present and future is only an illusion, even if it is a stuborn one."
Saint Augustine:
"How can the past and future be when the past no longer is and the future is not yet? As for the present, if if it were always present and never moved on to become the past, it would not be time but eternity"
Poety by T S Eliot:
"And the end and the begining were always there
Before the begining and after the end
And all is always now
The problem of understanding what "now" or "present" is very difficult for me to comprehend. For how long does "now" last before it becomes the past. And when does the "future" slip into the the present to become "now". I know it must be all tied up in the speed of light some how. Does "Time" have very small increments that can be divided no further than say 10 to the -43 power seconds? Is time in these small increments what makes allowable the spooky action of subatomic particle that quantum physicist tells us happens?