Why is the Bible wrong?

by StinkyPantz 108 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • AlanF

    Hi seedy3,

    You said:

    : ... there is a group in west Africa that have known about Sirus B long before science ever knew it existed, because they knew it was hidden by the brilliance of Sirus A......... Not bad for a bunch of natives running around in G-strings (their tradition says they knew this for 1,000's of years).

    In the name of getting facts straight, that group actually acquired their knowledge of Sirius B in the early 20th century. Here is the real story about that. Carl Sagan (in Broca's Brain, pp. 81-88, Ballantine Books, New York, 1979) wrote about the

    remarkable mythology surrounding the star Sirius that is held by the Dogon people of the Republic of Mali.... [who have] been studied intensively by anthropologists only since the 1930s.... The most striking aspects of Dogon astronomy have been recounted by Marcel Griaule, a French anthropologist working in the 1930s and 1940s. While there is no reason to doubt Griaule's account, it is important to note that there is no earlier Western record of these remarkable Dogon folk beliefs and that all the information has been funneled through Griaule.... In contrast to almost all prescientific societies, the Dogon hold that the planets as well as the Earth rotate about their axes and revolve about the Sun....

    More striking still is the Dogon belief about Sirius, the brightest star in the sky. They contend that it has a dark and invisible companion star which orbits Sirius.... once every fifty years. They state that the companion star is very small and very heavy, made of a special metal called "Sagala" which is not found on Earth.... The remarkable fact is that the visible star, Sirius A, does have an extraordinary dark companion, Sirius B.... [which is] the first example of a white dwarf star discovered by modern astrophysics. Its matter is in a state called "relativistically degenerate," which does not exist on Earth, and since the electrons are not bound to the nuclei in such degenerate matter, it can properly be described as metallic....

    At first glance the Sirius legend of the Dogon seems to be the best candidate evidence available today for past contact with an advanced extraterrestrial civilization. As we begin a closer look at this story, however, let us remember that the Dogon astronomical tradition is purely oral, that it dates with certainty only from the 1930s.... The hypothesis of a companion star to Sirius might have followed naturally from [other] Dogon mythology.... but there does not seem to be any explanation this simple about the period and density of the companion of Sirius. The Dogon Sirius myth is too close to modern astronomical thinking and too precise quantitatively to be attributed to chance. Yet there it sits, immersed in a body of more or less standard prescientific legend. What can the explanation be?....

    The Dogon have knowledge impossible to acquire without the telescope. The straightforward conclusion is that they had contact with an advanced technical civilization. The only question is, which civilization -- extraterrestrial or European? Far more credible than an ancient extraterrestrial educational foray among the Dogon might be a comparatively recent contact with scientifically literate Europeans who conveyed to the Dogon the remarkable European myth of Sirius and its white dwarf companion, a myth that has all the superficial earmarks of a splendidly inventive tall story. Perhaps the Western contact came from a European visitor to Africa, or from the local French schools, or perhaps from contacts in Europe by West Africans inducted to fight for the French in World War I.

    In 1862 the companion of Sirius was telescopically discovered, and by the end of the 19th century it was widely speculated that it was a white dwarf. By 1915 astronomers had confirmed that it was, and by 1928 the idea of extremely dense matter had been popularized. All this

    was covered in the scientific press and was accessible to the intelligent layman. All this was occurring just before Griaule encountered the Dogon Sirius legend.... In my mind's eye I picture a Gallic visitor to the Dogon people, in what was then French West Africa, in the early part of this century. He may have been a diplomat, an explorer, an adventurer or an early anthropologist. Such people.... were in West Africa many decades earlier. The conversation turns to astronomical lore. Sirius is the brightest star in the sky. The Dogon regale the visitor with their Sirius mythology. Then, smiling politely, expectantly, they inquire of their visitor what his Sirius myths might be. Perhaps he refers before answering to a well-worn book in his baggage. The white dwarf companion of Sirius being a current astronomical sensation, the traveler exchanges a spectacular myth for a routine one. After he leaves, his account is remembered, retold, and eventually incorporated into the corpus of Dogon mythology -- or at least into a collateral branch (perhaps filed under "Sirius myths, bleached peoples' account"). When Marcel Griaule makes mythological inquiries in the 1930s and 1940s, he has his own European Sirius myth played back to him.

    Readers ought to think about how the above story might relate to how a Flood legend might have spread from one source to all over the world, and of course evolved in the process.


  • StinkyPantz

    For Tower Man-

    Deuteronomy 14
    11 You may eat any clean bird
    . 12 But these you may not eat: the eagle, the vulture, the black vulture, 13 the red kite, the black kite, any kind of falcon, 14 any kind of raven, 15 the horned owl, the screech owl, the gull, any kind of hawk, 16 the little owl, the great owl, the white owl, 17 the desert owl, the osprey, the cormorant, 18 the stork, any kind of heron, the hoopoe and the bat.

    Last I checked, bats weren't birds.

    Leviticus 11:20
    " 'All flying insects that walk on all fours are to be detestable to you.

    Insects have six legs not four, silly Bible

    How about the resurrection of Jesus? How about the fact that he rode into Jerusalem on a donkey the exact day that Daniel predicted? How about His birth in the city of Bethlehem, as predicted in Micah? That's all for now. Let me add that even though Nostradomus got a few right, he didn't get them all right like the bible. And remember, there are still MANY prophecies yet to be fulfilled. Mostly regarding the nation of Israel.

    1) Well, there is no proof that these things happened.

    2) If they did it could have been written the fact

    3) In many cases Nostradamus was more specific that the Bible and got them right

    You want failed prophecies:

    God says that if Adam eats from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, then the day that he does so, he will die. But later Adam eats the forbidden fruit (3:6) and yet lives for another 930 years (5:5). 2:17

    As a punishment for killing Abel, God says Cain will be "a fugitive and a vagabond." Yet in just a few verses (4:16-17) Cain will settle down, marry, have a son, and build a city. This is not the activity one would expect from a fugitive and a vagabond. 4:12

    God promises to bring Jacob safely back from Egypt, but Jacob dies in Egypt (Gen.47:28-29) 46:3-4

    God promises to cast out many nations including the Canaanites and the Jebusites. But he was unable to fulfill his promise. 33:2

    God says that Solomon's kingdom will last forever. It didn't of course. It was entirely destroyed about 400 years after Solomon's death, never to be rebuilt. 7:13, 16

    Jeremiah prophesies that all nations of the earth will embrace Judaism. This has not happened. 3:17

    God lies to Zedekiah again by telling him that he will die in peace and be buried with his fathers. But later (2 Kg.25:7 and Jer.52:10-11) he dies a violent death in a foreign land. 34:5

    Should I continue?

    Edited by - StinkyPantz on 3 February 2003 0:15:36

  • gsx1138

    This is a library hub site. Most christians hate it and it does have its own agenda but the essays that is contains all have references.


    Tower it sounds to me like you already have your mind made up about the Bible. One thing you must realize is that the Bible does not prove the Bible. Hell I can write a book saying how I was inspired by God and prove it by saying "I was inspired by God". The question to theists is prove your Bible is the word of God without using the Bible. Which is why there are so many young creationists with an agenda when they get their PHD's. Unfortunately, their attempts at proving the Bible have all failed and they are usually laughed at in the scientific community.

    Here's an essay for you Tower:


    Edited by - gsx1138 on 3 February 2003 0:10:29


    gsx 1138 - great link

  • rem

    Tower Man,

    REM....Strange statement, indeed. That is unless you believe insects have four legs and bats are birds as the bible claims.

    Hey, I read that before. Where is it at in the bible?

    Stinky provided the passages. Thanks, Stinky!

    How exactly does archeological and historical evidence prove the divine authorship of the bible?

    I said that fulfilled prophecy + archeological and historical evidence is the proof. May I add the changed lives of Christians to the list?

    0 + 0 + 0 = 0. Adding yet another category of zero evidence to the mix does not make an argument stronger.

    Also, regarding the messianic prophecies... these have been discussed on this site in great detail. Here are just a few threads that have dealt with these claims:




    It sounds like you may be sincere, so I would encourage you to look into some of the things you take for granted as common knowledge. There are a lot of good resources on this site, books, and the Internet for research. One reason why those 'arguments' you brought up get pounced on is because they get refuted over and over and over on this site. It does get frustrating to see the same tired old arguments used, but it can be a learning opportunity if you are willing to do the research.


    Edited by - rem on 3 February 2003 0:26:35

  • joannadandy

    I find nothing wrong with the Bible. What I do have a problem with is the people who take it as holy writings. To me it's another book. It's no more inspired than the oral traditions transcribed by Homer, Virgil, or Ovid.

    Since when can books be wrong or right? They are nothing but the way humans see the world transcribed into words.

    I have to agree with GSX's orginal post to this thread. If your friends want proof the Bible being "right and true" then that is up to them to provide the insight to a non-believer.

  • AlanF

    Hi StinkyPantz and Rem,

    The arguments about "bats being birds" and "insects going on all fours" are not good ones in terms of proving a problem with the Bible.

    The Masoretic text uses at least two words that are usually translated "bird". I haven't tried to do an extensive study of this, so I can only comment somewhat generally here.

    Genesis 1:20 has the word `ohph which basically means "flying creature". Deuteronomy 14:11 has the word tsipohr (obviously onomatopoeic), which basically means "bird" but comes from a root word meaning "chirp, peep, twitter, whistle". Since bats are "flying creatures" and make sounds that can be described as chirping, etc., it seems to me that a bat is definitely within the sphere of reference of these Hebrew words. Keep in mind that modern classification of animals is just that -- modern -- and that in the everyday vernacular of ancient cultures like the Hebrews, there may well have been no distinction between various sorts of "flying creatures" that making chirping sounds. So, while bats are not birds in modern English scientific terms, it is quite likely that bats were tsiphor in ancient Hebrew vernacular.

    The Hebrew text sometimes uses the expression "walks on all fours" to refer to the way insects move. It seems obvious to the point of absurdity that the Hebrews could count the number of legs on insects, so it seems obvious as well that the phrase "walks on all fours" refers to the means of moving around, which is like that in most mammals, i.e., "on all fours" with the body horizontal, and as opposed to the way people move around, i.e., on two feet with the body vertical. To support my contention, it's again obvious that the Hebrews were allowed, under the Mosaic law, to eat the meat of mammals such as cows, sheep and goats, which certainly "walk on all fours". Yet Leviticus 11:41-42 (NWT) states:

    41 And every swarming creature that swarms upon the earth is a loathsome thing. It must not be eaten. 42 As for any creature that goes upon the belly and any creature that goes on all fours or any great number of feet of all the swarming creatures that swarm upon the earth, YOU must not eat them, because they are a loathsome thing.

    In this context, it is obvious that "any creature that goes on all fours" refers to insects, and perhaps other creatures, since they're referred to in conjunction with "any creature that goes on any great number of feet" (such as centipedes), but not to mammals such as cows that "go on all fours". It cannot refer to such mammals because the Law already allowed that such animals could be eaten. Thus Lev. 11:42 indicates that the expression "go on all fours" can refer to the way insects walk, and since the Hebrews knew that insects had six legs (they could count as well as we can), the expression "walk on all fours" must be a manner of speaking, and not be an exact, literal description of the number of legs that insects have. In other words, the expression is an idiom, and we know that idioms are always "illogical" -- otherwise they would not be idioms.

    My point here is that there are plenty of real criticisms of the Bible to be had. It does no good to use bad arguments, any more than it does Bible defenders to use bad arguments to defend their beliefs.


  • Faraon

    Talking about fowl, in Gen:1 The gods create them from the water, but on Gen. 2, Yahweh creates them from the ground!!!

    Gen 1: 20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heave

    Gen 2: 19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

    Yes, I agree, their way of classifying animals at the time was not the same as ours, but then again wasn't the bible supposed to be written for all generations to come, as some fundies claim?

  • SYN

    The one thing that convinced me that the Bible is uninspired is the unbelievable cruelty displayed by Ghod towards the people of Earth in it. It makes Hiroshima and Nagasaki look like wet candles!

  • foreword


    Yeah I guess you're right.....no you don't have to way 20 years to discuss the subject....haha. I give you the Ok.

    But as you can see by this thread, it's a play on words, but I have to admit some do have strong arguments. From my own observations, no one has been able to prove it either way. I do see however that those arguing against the veracity of the bible use a little more common sense in their analysis. In other words they use science and facts to debate their point of views, which is a lot better than just citing a few verses and saying...voila!

    I've always been a firm believer that there is a superior intelligence, anyway I hope so, but I have no proof of it, and no one has been able to prove whatsoever. We are all on our own as far as our belief system is concerned. Our realities are all different. So before you want to change someone's reality, make sure your own is correct, cause history has proven many realities wrong.

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