Ky. Bill to Repeal Clergy "Silent Right"

by Kenneson 82 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  YERU2

  seigs,

  I'm saying that all that will happen if this law passes is that pretty soon any and all crimes will be required to be reported. That and the fact that almost any Catholic Priest compelled to reveal this will go to jail instead. Not because the priest wants to protect pedophiles but because he wants to preserve the sanctity of the Sacrament. Any priest that does reveal a confession is automatically excommunicated.

  no, I don't approve of the way the Society has handled this, but the Society doesn't have a centuries old doctrine, paid for in blood and death and jail, of keeping what is revealed in Confession secret. Besides, what were talking about with the Elders is when a victim makes the accusation. If a child comes to a clergyman and accusses someone of abuse that should be reported.

  One big difference is that the Catholic Church doesn't excommunicate the victims when they go public.

  I do beleive there should be a very strict definition of what qualifies for the privelege, but I think the privelege must remain. Besides, even if passed I think it would lose the constitutional challenge. Penitent Clergy privelege has been challenged in court many times in the US, the clergy generally win.

  Edited by - Yeru2 on 11 January 2003 3:10:6
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  Yizuman

  I have to agree with YERU2 in some respects.

  We can't screw over the 5th and the bill of rights just to force a religion to comply with the law.

  Rather instead pass a more stricter law that forces ALL people regardless of their background to report child abuse cases. So this way it applies even to a religious person to have to report it since this is not a "religous" law in the real sense, but a law that applys to all human beings to report it.

  In other words, we need more BEHAVIOR laws, not security laws.

  siegswife - Isn't it worth taking the chance of losing something (freedom) in order to give a silenced child the voice to protest abuse?

  No it is not worth it at all. This is like telling everyone to raise their hands and give up ALL freedoms and ALL rights as a human being just for the sake of protecting someone or exchanging freedom for security.

  Take a look at Heartland Security where our freedom is being slowly eroded piece by piece since people are allowing themselves to be ruled by fear rather than freedom as our forefathers intended for us to be free instead of being locked in prison of fear, being afraid of everything, not wanting to go out for fear of losing life and limb.

  This is the danger folks. People are coming to the point that they are prefering to lose their freedom in exchange for security. This is not the way to go.

  This is not what YERU2 is fighting for our country who is a soldier for freedom, not fear.

  Yizuman

  Edited by - Yizuman on 11 January 2003 3:53:42
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  Cassiline

  "Under her proposal, "clergy-penitent privilege" would be eliminated only in cases of child abuse or neglect."~~ Article

  If this law is approved you'll see a lot of clergy going to jail. Wrong headed law for sure. I wouldn't mind seeing the clergy penitent privelege defined a little more stictly, but to eliminate it will do nothing to help victims, and only hurt religion.~~ Yeru

  This isn't a 5th amendment issue, if you or I were to know about a crime, and not report it, we could be held as an accessory to the crime. Why should the clergy be above the rest of the citizens? ~~ Yeru

  Because of the unique role clergy play in public life. If there is ANY issue I don't think I can trust talking to my clergy about, then NO issue is safe with them criminal or non-criminal. ~~ Yeru

  I bring up the 5th amendment issue because if the penitent beleives what he tells the clergy is a sacred secret to reveal it would be almost like self incrimination. ~~ Yeru

  If this law is passed for issues of child abuse then it's just the beginning of the slippery slope and NOTHING said to a clergyman will be sacred.~~ Yeru

  I'm saying that all that will happen if this law passes is that pretty soon any and all crimes will be required to be reported. That and the fact that almost any Catholic Priest compelled to reveal this will go to jail instead. Not because the priest wants to protect pedophiles but because he wants to preserve the sanctity of the Sacrament. Any priest that does reveal a confession is automatically excommunicated.~~ Yeru

  Yeru

  As I understand you are a very religious person and also (correct me if I am wrong) a Chaplin in the US Army. So forgive me when if I come off a bit strong.

  History repeats itself over and over in the fact that religion in itself has been the problem. Reflect upon the millions upon millions who have died all in the name of religion? At this point in my life to see the wars continue and one, which hit our soil, not only killing almost 4,000 people but destroyed how many childrens and adults mental peace? An act of religious violence that is said to have spawned this upcoming war.

  How much longer are people going to let religion dictate to society how one reports a crime of incest, rape, child molestation and murder to the authorities? Do you not believe that this in itself is giving too much power to an entity whose rules were written by men?

  I say enough is enough, the change to policy, as I understand it was quite simple:

  "Under her proposal, "clergy-penitent privilege" would be eliminated only in cases of child abuse or neglect.

  I have tired of seeing this privilege lead to the destruction of a child. How many catholic priests did indeed confess their sins to other priests to be absolved of all sin? No problems, here eat a cracker and say a few prayers, its all good. The offending priest goes on to molest and molest because of the sanctity of the Sacrament. Cant you see that this in itself enables the pedophile to continue? So what if the Catholic Church does not excommunicate those who report molesters. They sure as hell cover it up, and payoff the victims to shut them up.

  I have no problem if those who profess to be working for God go to jail because they refuse to break the sanctity of the Sacrament, a MAN made law that allows child molesters to continue destroying peoples lives.

  Too bad, if you dont have pedophiles come to a priest any more, for confession, to report their crimes. Nothing a priest could do would ever help them nor ever will. They need to be jailed period. For when it comes to trying to reform a pedophile its almost impossible. No priest anywhere will or can help.

  I would rather be excommunicated as a priest, then know I allowed a man or woman continue to kill a childs sprit and rape their minds for the rest of their life.

  Religion is responsible for the deaths of millions and will continue to be the cause for the death of millions as time progresses. There are priorities in life and if a person of the cloth has to agonize over reporting a deviant sexual abuser then there is something defiantly wrong with the laws of said religion, PERIOD.
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  YERU2

  That's just it, we have no idea if ANY of these priests confessed their sin to other priests. This law, if passed, would make a priest who hears confession choose between God and the State. I do firmly believe that all cases REPORTED to clergy should be turned over to the law, but those cases "confessed" to clergy need keep the privelege.

  Besides Cassiline, you point to the "millions" killed in the name of religion, but not the millions killed by atheist regimes.
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  Cassiline

  A quick search shows this article along with several others. I was looking for a specific case wherein a priest now accused, states he did indeed confess to other priests. I can't find it of now but will tomorrow, I'm off to bed.. I suppose all of those who have said they have confessed are lying, but for some nagging suspicion I highly doubt it.

  A French bishop admitted in a court on Thursday that he was more concerned with helping an accused pedophile priest than with helping the victims and their families.

  Bishop Pierre Pican of Bayeux-Lisieux is on trial on charges he covered up for a pedophile priest who was later jailed for 18 years for the rape of one boy and the sexual abuse of 10 others between 1989 and 1996. He is the first bishop to face prosecution for failing to turn in a priest when such charges arose. Bishop Pican said he confronted Father Rene Bissey in 1997 after learning of one charge, but failed to follow up on other stories of abuse the priest admitted to him. "The failure to investigate what had happened to other victims was a lack of vigilance on our part," said the bishop, who was later visibly annoyed about having to discuss sexual acts in court.~~ from article

  http://www.cwnews.com/Browse/2001/06/15734.htm

  Besides Cassiline, you point to the "millions" killed in the name of religion, but not the millions killed by atheist regimes. ~~Yeru

  You right I did not mention this, as I was speaking of religious atrocities which are the focus of this thread.

  Edited by - cassiline on 11 January 2003 5:17:42
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  YERU2

  "All those that confess"? First you mention an article about one priest who said he confessed, that then turns into ALL THOSE that confessed? How many will confess if this law is passed? About ZERO. However, continue the privelege and perhaps some of these guys would get help. Were I a priest and another priest, or ANY person confessed this to me I would withold absolution until such time as they turned themselves in to the police.

  This seems more an anti-clerical bent than is does about protecting kids.

  You can't mention the millions killed because of religion until you mention the hundreds of millions killed because of the athiest states. Sorry, that's how it works.
• 

  mustang

  "Nothing can be worse then spending time in prison or having your life ruined, because someone wants to accuse you of something out of spite. Not every accusation is true! "

  Whyhideit:

  Apparently, China went through a period of time (during the late "Mao-era") where people were killing off their enemies by making false accusations against them. Due Process was lax or non-existent and there were sanctioned pro-government vigilante organizations roaming the country.

  The "snitches" were effective and deadly.

  "If this law is passed for issues of child abuse then it's just the beginning of the slippery slope and NOTHING said to a clergyman will be sacred."

  Yeru: You are right. A slippery slope, indeed. WATCH THAT FIRST STEP!!!

  Mustang
• 

  DannyBear

  Cassi said:

  ***There are priorities in life and if a person of the cloth has to agonize over reporting a deviant sexual abuser then there is something defiantly wrong with the laws of said religion, PERIOD.***

  It is the issue of 'religious laws' that make this discussion so frustrating. What is it about special interest groups that gives them the license to legislate the majority? What motivates the concept that because we have 'the right' to OUR belief's, that other's must sacrifice thier freedom's to accomadate our views?

  The moment the word 'religion' enter's the fray, sound reasoning, logic, is abandoned in the name of tolerance.

  Cassi is so right on the mark. It is priorities that should motivate change. Not anyone's particular priorities but everyones.

  Since abuse affects everyone no matter the religion or creed. Then it qualifies as a benchmark for an across the board method of handling. Dogma be damned.

  As to this idea that 'innocent' should be willing to suffer and accept false accusations, imprisonment, in the name of 'protecting the children' is little different than the approach of the 'right to life' crowd, who will excuse murder in the name of protecting an unborn life. Fantatics breed fanatical reactions.

  Danny
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  siegswife

  As to this idea that 'innocent' should be willing to suffer and accept false accusations, imprisonment, in the name of 'protecting the children' is little different than the approach of the 'right to life' crowd, who will excuse murder in the name of protecting an unborn life. Fantatics breed fanatical reactions.

  I may be a maniac or a lunatic, but I'm no fanatic! LOL

  I hold that opinion in opposition to the WTS' "two witness" policy. The JW's that I've discussed this with seem to think that policy is designed to protect innocent men/women from false accusations. My point is that I think God fearing men and women would rather be governed by a system designed to protect innocent children from pedophile predators rather than to offer a haven to those same criminals because of the possibility that someone might be falsely accused.

  Innocent people are put in jail every day for being falsely accused and convicted of a variety of crimes. Does that mean we shouldn't have any laws because someone innocent might end up in jail? Of course not.

  I think that the clergy should be compelled by law to report any accusations of child abuse and/or molestation to the secular authorities, no exceptions. Let them sort it out.
• 

  Elsewhere

  The Catholic Conference of Kentucky said Westrom's legislation violated the First Amendment right of religious freedom. A similar bill proposed last year in Connecticut failed.

  The right to free exercise of religion is not absolute... nor should it be.

  People have petitioned the courts for the right to use pot in religious ceremonies and the petitions have been struck down. Why? Because the courts decided that the use of drugs is more damaging to society than the benefits of free exercise of religion.

  If the courts are willing to restrict the religious freedom of using pot for the benefit of the public, then why would a court then allow clergy to cover-up horrifying crimes of sexual abuse?

  In my opinion, if pot is out, then sexual abuse should be out too.