So, where DID the 1914 timeline go awry?

by Xander 163 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Scholar,

    Thank you for your response to my question in which you note:

    Therefore, a Christian should be free to exercise one's conscience when it comes to accepting dates and a prophetic interpretation based on such dates.

    Of course this option is not open to Jehovah's Witnesses, who, were they to chose to exercise their conscience in such a 'free' manner would find themselves disfellowshipped, shunned and labeled as 'apostate'. As such they are according to the policy of your religious leaders, deserving of everlasting death at the hands of an angry Christ Jesus. It is against this backdrop alone, and not focusing on his academic bent, that I mention Greg Stafford, whom as you know reached a similar conclusion to the one that you note above in his most recent book.

    I have avoided involving the issues of chronology in discussing this matter with you, although you have previously in reply to an earlier matter accepted that the secular weight of evidence does not seem to favor a 607BCE date. The point that I am making is that the chronological issues and their repercussions are interesting and it would be useful if JW's could discuss this matter openly without fear of the cowardly and threatening repercussions that the WTS would visit on them them if they were to do so. The issue is not so much 'When did Jerusalem fall?', but is it morally acceptable for the WTS to punish and brutalize those who do not accept their current theological or chronological viewpoint? The bottom line is that the GB are demanding 'You either believe what we tell you or we will make sure that your friends, family, brothers, sisters, uncles, cousins and JW workmates, turn away and refuse to speak to you for the rest of your life'. Would you agree with this statement? Given your statement above, do you feel that they have the moral right to do so?

    On this basis alone, I would question your describing the belief system of the WTS as the 'truth' as you do above, but would suggest to you that the repetitive overuse of an arrogant catch-phrase does not necessarily honor the principles of truth, which every Christian, like yourself is under obligation to do. Nevertheless, despite the moral gulf that lies between us, I thank you for your candid response to my post.

    Best regards - HS

    Edited by - hillary_step on 7 February 2003 11:27:31

  • Earnest
    Earnest

    Hi Alan,

    In other words, you'd have to show why using "utensils" in verses 7 and 18 is better than using "articles"...

    That is just what I did in the context of the way the NWT translated keliy elsewhere. But I am quite happy to answer your questions :

    What context in 2 Chron. 36:5-8 indicates that keliy in verse 7 should not be rendered "articles"?

    I previously showed that the NWT translates keliy as articles when it specifically qualifies the keliy as valuable. As the keliy of verse 7 is associated with the house of Jehovah but has no further qualification it should be rendered as "utensils", not "articles".

    What context in 2 Chron. 36:11-21 indicates that keliy in verse 18 should not be rendered "articles"?

    I previously showed that the NWT translates keliy as articles when it specifically qualifies the keliy as valuable. As the keliy of verse 18 is associated with the house of the true God but has no further qualification it should be rendered as "utensils", not "articles".

    Do you think that verse 10 excludes things that are sacred?

    No.

    Why do you claim that it's best to use "utensils" in verses 7 and 18, rather than "articles"?
    I am claiming it is most consistent to use "utensils" in verses 7 and 18, rather than "articles". See the answers above.
    Why do you claim that "articles" does not fit in verses 7 and 18?

    See the answers above.

    Your overall argument implies that keliy means one thing in verse 7, something else in verse 10, and in verse 18 the same thing as in verse 7. How do you know that these meanings are not all the same?

    I do not know the meaning of keliy in these three verses. I agreed that it could be translated with the same word in each case or a different word in each case. But I am talking about consistency in translation and my argument is that the NWT is consistent in the way it has translated these three verses. I think it probable that there is a difference between what is described in verse 7 and verse 10 because why qualify the one as "desirable" and not the other. But I do not know that. I cannot prove it. I can only say it is probable. But I am convinced that the NWT is consistent in the way it has translated keliy in these three verses.

    If I told you that on my wife's 45th birthday I gave her "some things", and on her 46th birthday I gave her "valuable things", and on her 47th I gave her "a lot of things", would my use of "valuable" imply in any way that what I gave her the other two times was not valuable?

    No. The other two times they may have been valuable and they may have been a bunch of flowers or a hat. We cannot know. But we do know that on her 46th birthday you definitely gave her "valuable things".

    The overall flow of narrative in 2 Chron. 36 is to briefly describe, in chronological order, certain main features of the reigns of Jehoiakim, Jehoiachin and Zedekiah. During Jehoiakim's reign, "some" keliy were deported. During Jehoiachin's reign, "desirable" keliy were deported. During Zedekiah's reign, "all" remaining keliy were deported. Does this sequence not suggest to you that the keliy in each case were in exactly the same category, i.e., "stuff from the temple"? Explain your answer.

    Yes, the keliy in each case was "stuff from the temple". But as the second set of keliy was qualified as "desirable" that suggests to me that a distinction has been made.

    Do you think that it is reasonable to claim that the keliy taken during Jehoiakim's reign did not include valuable things?

    No, I think it probably did include valuable things. But that is an assumption. The difference may be that in the first and last instances there was a mix of valuable things and other things whereas in the second instance there were only valuable things (probably gold and silver). All I know for sure is that the writer made a distinction. Without further information that has to be good enough in itself.

    AlanF : What is wrong is for someone to argue that this has any significance in determining how many deportations of "articles" occurred.

    Earnest : Exactly. And that is as true of Jonsson as it is of "scholar".

    AlanF : That would be true if Jonsson's argument hinged on the proper tranlsation of keliy in each verse.

    AlanF : The argument is not based on "a generic word". It is based on the fact that three deportations of keliy from the temple are recorded.

    We are both talking about whether or not the translation of keliy is relevant to the number of deporations. And we are agreed it is not. We are also agreed that the difference in the translation of keliy in the NWT is intentional. Can we let it rest there.

    I was interested to see your quote from Alan Rogerson's book. The first, and one of the fairest, non-Witness books about the Witnesses that I have read. I believe he is now in Melbourne, Australia. I wonder if he's one of the Wallabies on this board ?

    Oh, and finally some interesting points from the most recent volume "scholar" referred to: Word Biblical Commentary, volume 13, by T.R.Hobbs, 1985, pp.348-353 (2 Kings 24):

    Comment

    The Babylonian Chronicle (see Wiseman, Chronicles of the Chaldaean Kings (626-556 B.C.) in the British Museum, 1956, 43-77, and Grayson, Texts from Cuneiform Sources - Volume V, Assyrian and Babylonian Chronicles , 1975, 99-102) provides an outline of the international events that led up to the Babylonian invasion and the sacking of Jerusalem. To be noted is that from 609 B.C. onward the Babylonian interests under Nabopolassar are decidedly towards the west. In mid-609 B.C. Nabopolassar's army attacked Harran (BM 29101:66-75). In the following year they fought against Beit Hanunya and returned home in the month of Tebet (BM 22047:1-4). Early in 607 B.C. Nebuchadrezzar, the son of Nabopolassar, was engaged against various enemies on the banks of the Euphrates (BM 22407:5-15), and in the latter part of 606 B.C. Nabopolassar fought against Egyptian and Syrian armies in the northwest of his territory.

    In 605 B.C. Nebuchadrezzar fought at the head of the Babylonian army at Carchemish (BM 21946:1-10) and returned home to assume the throne on the death of his father. Then followed a series of campaigns into "Hatti" (Palestine), after which he returned home in 605/604 B.C. in the eleventh month. In his first year (604/603 B.C.) he marched into Palestine, and by the ninth month (Kislev) he had sacked Ashkelon. In the second month (Iyyar) of the following year (603/602 B.C.) he again ventured into Palestine, as he did again in the third month (Siwan) of his third year (602/601 B.C.). Late in his fourth year (601/600 B.C.) he marched against the borders of Egypt but was met with a serious setback and consequently spent his fifth year recuperating and refitting his army. In 599/598 B.C., in the ninth month (Kislev), he again moved west and plundered several Arab towns to the east of Palestine. The following year he attacked Palestine, again in the ninth month. The account offers very specific details of his capture of Jerusalem on the second day of Adar (the twelfth month), ie, February 16, 597 B.C.

    This sketch of international affairs, to which can be added the activities of Psammetichus II of Egypt, provides the background for the events found in 2 Kgs 24 and 25. Sometime after the defeat of the Egyptian army at Carchemish in 605 B.C., Judah became subject to Babylon. Exactly when is not known. The campaign to Ashkelon in 604/603 B.C. would provide a suitable context for this (see A. Malamat, "The Twilight of Judah in the Egyptian-Babylonian Maelstrom", VTSup 28, 1974, 129-31, for the possibilities).

    1 With this verse compare 2 Chr 36:6-7, which is not a complete parallel. Chronicles adds the note about the confiscation of the temple vessels and their installation in Nebuchadrezzar's temple in Babylon, a statement challenged by Jer 27:18. On the use of "attack" see 3:21; 6:24; 16:5, etc. The expression "in his days" is not helpful in dating the invasion of Nebuchadrezzar. It must have been sufficiently early in the reign of Jehoiakim to allow him three years' servitude. The campaign records in the Babylonian Chronicle are imprecise enough to be of little use. The most likely context is the Babylonian attack on Ashkelon in Kislev of 604/603 B.C. (so Malamat, VTSup 28:131-32, and Albright, "The Seal of Eliakim and the latest Pre-exilic History of Judah", JBL 51 [1932] 90-91). Josephus (Antiq. x. 87) mistakenly places the first invasion of Nebuchadrezzar in his fourth year (i.e., 601/600 B.C.), but the Babylonian Chronicle proves this to be false. Larsson ("When Did the Babylonian Captivity Begin?", JTS 18 [1967] 417-23) seeks to harmonize this material with Chronicles and comes up with a date of 605 B.C. for Jehoiakim's subjugation. But this is unlikely.

    ..."then he turned in rebellion" is a synonym for "revolt" (see 1:1; 3:5); LXX translates both with ethetesen. The rebellion could well have taken place within the period between Kislev 601/600 B.C. and Kislev 599/598 B.C. The first of these dates corresponds to Nebuchadrezzar's abortive attack on Egypt; the second is the date of his attack on Hatti and the neighboring Arabs. In the year between, no military activity took place. Instead, Nebuchadrezzar stayed at home to refit.

    2 ...

    "raiding bands." These marauders, lightly armed troops best suited for hit-and-run tactics, were taking advantage of the relatively weak position of Judah at this time. The nature of the coalition suggests that Nebuchadrezzar hired mercenaries from the east of the Jordan to act on his behalf, presumably until he was strong enough himself to launch a full-scale attack on Palestine. This attack did not come until Kislev of 598/597 B.C. (see BM 21946: 11-13). The subjugation of the Arabs the year before would have provided the Babylonians with sufficient power east of the Jordan to encourage such mercenary raids on Judah. That these raids netted Nebuchadrezzar some Jewish prisoners (so Malamat, VTSup 28:131) is an attractive possibility. It is unlikely that such raids were just for fun. It might also help solve some of the confusing problems over the final number of prisoners taken into exile. The situation is reflected in Jer 35:11....

    5 Compare with 2 Chr 36:5-8 and note the minor additions. No mention is made in Kings of Jehoiakim's death, whereas the account in Chronicles states that the Babylonian king had him bound and dragged off to Babylon. Josephus (Antiq. x.97-98) adopts a similar understanding of events, although in his account Jehoiakim is subsequently executed. Josephus's chronology has recently been revived by Larsson (JTS 18 [1967] 417-23), and [Bustenay] Oded , "Judah and the Exile," in: John H. Hayes and J. Maxwell Miller (eds.), Israelite and Judean History, 1977 , 471) attempts a synchronization. However, the expression "he slept with his fathers" would suggest burial of some form in Jerusalem, not beyond Judah. This point is made by codex Vaticanus, which adds "in the garden of Uzzah." There is nothing here to throw light on Jeremiah's comment (Jer 22:19; 36:30) on the death of the king. The suggestion that the king was assassinated (so Bright, History of Israel, 1972, 327) is certainly possible, but one would have expected a reference to it in the text....

    8 The record of the reign of Jehoiachin begins with the typical formulaic introduction. "eighteen years old." 2 Chr 36:9 reads "eight," but this is unlikely. An eight-year-old boy who reigned for three months is hardly likely to have merited the criticism offered in v 9....

    10 The Babylonian army attacked Jerusalem in response to the rebellion. According to the Babylonian Chronicle the attack began in the month of Kislev (Nov.-Dec.) 598/597 B.C. and ended three months later on the second day of Adar (Feb.-Mar. 597 B.C.). On the dating, see E. Kutsch, "Das Jahr der Katastrophe, 587 v. Chr.", Biblica 55 (1974) 520-45. The three-month period corresponds neatly with the length of the reign of Jehoiachin....

    12 ...

    "in the eighth year of his reign." The date is according to Nebuchadrezzar's reign. The perspective is therefore now that of one who was familiar with the Babylonian method of reckoning, or familiar with the date of Nebuchadrezzar's accession. It corresponds well with the date in the Babylonian Chronicle. To build too much on this in terms of the redaction history of the book (see J. Gray, I and II Kings, Old Testament Library, 753) is a mistake. Jer 52:28, universally regarded as a later edition of the fall of Jerusalem, reads "seventh," which ignores the Babylonian reckoning by not taking into account the accession year of the king. According to the Chronicle, the city fell on the second of Adar (Feb. 16) in the seventh year of the king. The exile of prisoners would have taken some weeks to organize and would therefore have taken place in the early months of the following year, the eighth.

    13 Following the fall of the city, the Babylonians help themselves to the spoils of war. As one might expect, the temple and palace treasures are a primary target, as had happened many times before. Not only is the pattern followed, but also the prophecy of 20:16-19 is now being fulfilled....It is argued that Jer 27:19-22 is a contradiction because it refers to vessels still in the temple during the reign of Zedekiah. There is no contradiction here. In neither account, Babylonian or Judean, is it stated that everything was looted. Nebuchadrezzar clearly made provision for the continuation of the economic and political life of Judah after the first deportation, albeit in a much reduced form, by the appointment of Zedekiah as king.

    15 ...When compared, the two passages [verse 14 and verses 15 & 16] betray a different interest. V 14 is concerned mainly with the removal of specifically military personnel from the Jerusalem establishment. Vv 15-16 are more widely based. Malamat's suggestion (VTSup 28:133-35) that the addition of 3,023 (Jer 52:28) and 7,000 (v 16) is approximately 10,000 (v 14), and that there were therefore two initial deportations in the seventh and eighth years of Nebuchadrezzar is most tempting. The initial 3,023 referred to the "Jews," i.e., those from outside Jerusalem who were deported before the fall of the city by the army Nebuchadrezzar had left in Palestine when he returned home after the Arab campaign in his sixth year. It is here, however, that the theory falters. That Nebuchadrezzar left such an army behind is unlikely and is not supported by the Babylonian Chronicle.

    Earnest

    Edited by - Earnest on 9 February 2003 6:57:8

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    deleted

  • Londo111
    Londo111

    If only I had read this thread ten years ago...

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit