So, where DID the 1914 timeline go awry?

by Xander 163 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    This discussion has at times gotten pretty technical. So, for the benefit of the average reader it may be best to get back to discussing some of the more basic problems with the JW "Daniel 4 = 1914" interpretation.

    JW's currently maintain that Christ returned invisibly in the year 1914. They believe this to be so based upon their understanding of the fourth chapter of Daniel. However, their interpretation of Daniel chapter 4 has more holes than a 500 pound block of Swiss cheese. Here are some of the "holes."

    The Society's interpretation maintains that Nebuchadnezzar was removed from Babylon's throne for 7 years. And that those 7 years were "prophetic years" of 360 days each, totaling 2,520 days. And they say that each of those 2,520 days was meant to picture an ordinary "non-prophetic" solar year of 365.2425 days each. And they say that this prophecy was meant to indicate that the time of Christ's return can be determined by counting forward in time 2,520 years from the time of Jerusalem's destruction by Babylon, which they say occurred in the year 607 BC.

    This understanding is based on a long series of highly questionable assumptions. And if any one of those assumptions is wrong, then so is the whole interpretation.

    First, the history of Nebuchadnezzar's reign is very well documented in the scriptures and in extrabiblical sources. A thorough review of all of this information shows that it is impossible to find a period of 7 years within his reign of 43 years when Nebuchadnezzar was absent from his throne or inactive as ruler. With this in mind, it seems unlikely that the "7 times" could have referred to a period of 7 years.

    Second, the idea that the "times" which were really years referred to "prophetic years" of 360 days each is based on the belief that the "1260 days" spoken of in Rev. 12:6 are equated with the "3 1/2 times" spoken of in Rev. 12:14. This is not necessarily so. ( For instance, the 1260 days in Rev. 12:6 may have referred to the time when Christianity was protected after the time of Christ's ascension and before the time the Spirit was poured out on the Gentiles in 36 AD. Then, when the good news began to be preached to all national groups Christianity took off, as though it had wings of eagles, and was thereafter protected for a second longer period of time. This second period of protection was the "3 1/2 times" spoken of in Rev. 12:14. This "3 1/2 times" would then be understood to be the period of time from 36 AD until the time of Christ's return.) Since some interpretations of Rev. 12, such as this one, say that the "1260 days" and the "3 1/2 times" spoken of in Rev. 12 do not refer to the same period of time, it is only an assumption and quite likely a wrong one, that the concept of a 360 day "prophetic year" even exists in the Bible.

    Third, it seems contradictory that each of the 360 days in each of these 7 "prophetic years" was meant to picture a solar year containing 365.2425 days, even if we were on sound footing so far which we are not. For if days were meant to be understood as years, then it would follow that days in prophetic years ought to be understood as an equal number of "prophetic years," not an equal number of solar years.

    Fourth, even if Christ did have in mind a period of 2,520 years when he referred to "the times of the Gentiles," the idea that such a period of time was meant to be counted from the time of Jerusalem's destruction by Babylon is itself highly questionable. For instance, why would it not have begun to be counted when Nebuchadnezzar took king Jehoiachin as his prisoner to Babylon and then appointed a man of his own choosing, Zedekiah, to act as his servant while occupying Jerusalem's throne?

    Fifth, and one of the biggest "holes" in this piece of "Swiss cheese" is that it is internally inconsistent with both Daniel and Revelation. The Watchtower's interpretation of Daniel 4 tells us that its "7 times" = 2,520 years. We are told the cryptic word "times" clearly indicates a greater meaning than just "7 years." But when the term "3 and 1/2 times" (half of 7 times) is used in both Daniel and Revelation (Dan. 7:25; Rev.12:14) the Watchtower does not say those "3 and 1/2 times" = 1,260 years, half of 2,520 years. To do so would certainly be consistent with their Daniel 4 interpretation. But no, the Watchtower does not do something so obviously sensible. Instead they tell us that when the term "3 and 1/2 times" appears in the Bible it simply means 3 and 1/2 years and nothing more.

    And, sixth, as has been discussed here many times, the historical and biblical evidence is overwhelming that Jerusalem was not destroyed by Babylon in 607 BC. Rather, as all history books tell us, that event took place in 587/6 BC.

    One final important point that should be made is that Daniel chapter 4 does not need any interpretation by us today. Nebuchadnezzar had a dream and asked Daniel to interpret it, which he did quite well in verses 20-28. The interpretation Daniel gave seemed quite thorough, and it said nothing about the year 1914. Neither is there any place else in the Bible which indicates that Daniel's interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's dream was either incorrect or incomplete. Thus, there exists no reason to believe that God intended for us to understand Nebuchadnezzar's dream any differently than Daniel interpreted it.

    This it not to say that a secondary, larger fulfillment of Nebuchadnezzar's dream may not be possible. But if there really is a secondary, larger fulfillment of Daniel 4, the correct understanding of it might be totally different from the one JW's have suggested. And since Daniel himself interpreted the dream and he did not indicate that there existed a then unexplained secondary, larger fulfillment of that dream, how can we say for sure that there is one? And even if there is one, how can we say for sure what it is?

    Now JW's all say the larger fulfillment seems obvious to them. But I believe that if it does, it is only because their thinking has been conditioned to understand Daniel 4 in the way they now do. To illustrate this point, I'll here suggest another possibility that could just as well be the real "greater fulfillment" of Daniel 4, if indeed there is one. ( I could suggest several interpretations which all make just as much sense as the Watchtower's interpretation. But, for now, to make my point I'll offer just one.)

    Satan the devil was pictured by that tree. Like that Daniel 4 tree, Satan's rule and influence fills the whole earth. And like that tree, the Bible tells us that Satan's rule and influence will one day be cut down and bound. The tree in Daniel 4 was bound with metal bands. Satan will be bound with metal "chains." That Nebuchadnezzar was used to play the small scale role of Satan seems quite fitting. Nebuchadnezzar was, after all, a king who had persecuted and enslaved God's people. The tree was banded for "7 times." Satan will be chained for 1,000 years. How do "7 times" equal 1,000 years? As the Watchtower has done, we will speculate that it is God's intention to restore earth to a paradise 7,000 years after Adam's rebellion in Eden. So, everything in this speculative interpretation is based on this speculative 7,000 year period of time. Since 7 X ("7 times") 1,000 years = 7,000 years, the "7 times" spoken of in Daniel chapter 4 should be understood to equal 1,000 years. After those 1,000 years have passed Satan will be released from his chains just as the tree was unbanded. Then, just as Nebuchadnezzar acknowledged God's sovereignty after 7 times had passed over him, Satan will be forced to bend his knee to God before he is finally destroyed. For as the Bible says, "Every knee will bow." (In the initial small "scale fulfillment" of this interpretation of Daniel 4 Nebuchadnezzar was removed from his throne for 1,000 days, a day for each year of the "large scale" fulfillment. History does allow Nebuchadnezzar a 1,000 day absence from his throne but not a 7 year absence.)

    The point is, with a little imagination, we can come up with many other possible "larger" fulfillment's of Daniel chapter 4, all of them just as good if not better, than the Watchtower's interpretation. But since Daniel already gave us the correct interpretation of the prophecy, and since nowhere in the Bible does it indicate that there is, in fact, another correct interpretation of it, we cannot say for sure that there is one, or if there is one, what exactly it is.

    Clearly, the Watchtower's 1914 doctrine is not Bible interpretation. It is Bible manipulation.

    Edited by - aChristian on 4 February 2003 20:57:22

  • Earnest
    Earnest

    Craig (aka onacruse):

    Thank you for your kind words, but you are far too modest about your own contributions which are always thought-provoking. In some respects I'm a bit of a strawman, not because my argument is weak, but because I am not defending an ideology except truth itself. My identification with JWs is not dependent on 1914 or any other year as I simply believe that Jehovah has used them to further his purpose in the same way that he used the Catholic Church, the reformers (like Luther and Tyndale) and various Bible Societies that exist today. It is not quite orthodox but that has never been my strength.

    AlanF:

    But your conclusion is based only on the fact that the New World Translation in seven out of eight instances translates keliy chemdah as "desirable articles". It isn't based on context, since there is nothing in the context that allows one to tell just what "articles" are being referred to. All you've really shown is that it's reasonable for the NWT to use "valuable articles" in verse 10. You haven't shown why it's best to use "utensils" in verses 7 and 18. To form a valid conclusion you would have to show precisely why "articles" does not fit in verses 7 and 18. In other words, you'd have to show why using "utensils" in verses 7 and 18 is better than using "articles" -- but you can't, because there is no textual or contextual way of doing that.

    You are quite correct that keliy could be translated differently in each verse as the New Jerusalem Bible does, or with the same word in each case as you proposed. However, in the context of the NWT where it used utensils when keliy refers to sacred "stuff" and articles when keliy refers to valuable "stuff" it is quite clear why using "utensils" in verses 7 and 18 is better than using "articles". It does not mean that the other translations are wrong or inferior, just that the NWT is consistent with its own terms of reference.

    What is wrong is for someone to argue that this has any significance in determining how many deportations of "articles" occurred.

    Exactly. And that is as true of Jonsson as it is of "scholar".

    Earnest

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Hi Earnest,

    : You are quite correct that keliy could be translated differently in each verse as the New Jerusalem Bible does, or with the same word in each case as you proposed.

    Good! We have disposed of "scholar's" argument, then. Perhaps you will have more success explaining this to him than others of us have.

    : However, in the context of the NWT where it used utensils when keliy refers to sacred "stuff" and articles when keliy refers to valuable "stuff" it is quite clear why using "utensils" in verses 7 and 18 is better than using "articles".

    Not at all. Neither you nor "scholar" nor the Watchtower Society have provided any justification for this at all. See below for more on this.

    : It does not mean that the other translations are wrong or inferior, just that the NWT is consistent with its own terms of reference.

    But it isn't, completely. As I explained, it's consistent only in the sense that in 7 out of 8 instances where keliy is coupled with chemdah, it renders keliy chemdah as "desirable articles" rather than "desirable utensils". But in 2 Chron. 36, the context allows no distinguishing among the various meanings of keliy. Therefore, if "articles" is determined by other NWT usage to be the correct rendering in 2 Chron. 36:10, and if the NWT Translation Committee's statement of consistency is to be believed, then keliy in 2 Chron.36:7, 18 should also be rendered "articles". Which of course negates "scholar's" argument.

    So far you have not presented an iota of argument about why context indicates that keliy ought to be rendered in verses 7 and 18 different from verse 10 in the NWT. I have no argument with rendering keliy as "articles" in 36:10, or in a vacuum rendering 36:7, 18 as "utensils", but the claim is made that the NWT is consistent in translating specific Hebrew words into unique, specific English words as long as context permits, but neither you nor "scholar" has given a single bit of argument about why the context of verse 10 is so different from that of verses 7 and 18 that it is justifed (in NWT Translation Committee terms) to render the word keliy differently in the one verse.

    :: What is wrong is for someone to argue that this has any significance in determining how many deportations of "articles" occurred.

    : Exactly. And that is as true of Jonsson as it is of "scholar".

    That would be true if Jonsson's argument hinged on the proper tranlsation of keliy in each verse. But it does not. Jonsson's argument has nothing to do with what word is used here. It has only to do with the fact that 2 Chron. 36 describes three times when temple {articles, utensils, vessels, stuff} were deported to Babylon.

    More generally, Jonsson's argument is valid whether keliy is rendered "articles", "vessels", "utensils", "stuff" or anything else consistent with context. The commentaries that I cited (Keil-Delitsch) and that "scholar" cited (Word Biblical Commentary) both support Jonsson's argument. Nothing that "scholar" has given forth supports his claims, even though he claims different. Nothing that the Watchtower Society has published supports his claims. You yourself know this. So there is a great deal of evidence in favor of Jonsson's argument, and nothing of substance contrary to it.

    AlanF

    Edited by - AlanF on 6 February 2003 1:4:9

  • scholar
    scholar

    Alan F, a Christian and Earnest

    I wish to respond to some of your comments in recent days. Firstly, my intention in bringing attention to Jonsson's argument as discussed in his Appendix article on the Three deporatations to Babylon was to highlight his mischevious use of the generic Hebrew word 'keliy'. The fact of the matter is that this word is subject to both idiom and a wide choice of meaning which is dependent on the opinion and interpretation of the translator whatever his religious or theological bias. My beef with Jonsson is that he begins his book with the following intention: "Because of its subject matter, in this book Bible texts are generally quoted from the New World Translation". Why did not Jonsson base his argument regarding the three deporations using the generic word 'vessels' instead of using the words for keliy as rendered in the NWT in 2Chronicles 36:7, 10.18? He chose not to do so because such word choice as utensils and desirable articles would invalidate his argument. But he misleads the reader by quoting the adjective 'desirable' instead of the qualified noun 'articles'. What he should have done was to acknowledge the fact that the NWT along with other translations uses different words for these three verses and that some translations do not follow a consistent pattern in these three verses, the NWT and Green's Interlinear OT are examples of this practice. I believe that to base an argument namely that there were three deportations on a generic word is both foolish and shows poor scholarship.

    In my last post I mistakenly referred to the wrong commentary in the WBC series. The correct reference is as follows : 2 KINGS, Vol.13, T.R. Hobbs, p.343 with the heading 'Attack and Deportation (24:1-20). and p.356 with the heading 'Jerusalem Destroyed and Second Deporation ' (25:1-30). I apologize for any confusion.

    I applaud Earnest in posting the section from this commentary series on the book of 2 Chronicles as it contains some interesting observations. One of several pertains to the view that the Chronicler was content "to present the themes of exile and tribute that characterize his treatment of the last four kings of Judah" ( p.299. pars.1 and 5). In this, I commend Jonsson for drawing attention to the subject of the tribute in his Appendix, such definitive discussion has not appeared in the Society's literature to my knowledge.

    Secondly, this commentator and in agreement with the scholars who wrote the commentary on Jeremiah in the WBC series confirm that there differing opinions about the beginning, lenghth and end of the seventy years. (Note coment p.301,par.4). It would seem that despite Jonsson's research on the seventy years and the so called 'factual evidence ' underpinning his chronology, it has not influenced the scholarly community one iota. One must remember that Jonsson first published in 1983. So. for nearly twenty years his views have not reinterpreted biblical history despite the fact that his views are in some degree consonant with traditional chronology. In short, repecting the Jehoiakim's third year and the subject of the seventy years there remains considerable disagreement.

    I am well pleased that Alan F respects Keil's and Delitzsch's Commentary on the Old Testament as in the case of the commentator's comments on the first two verses in Daniel and the first verse of chapter 2, there are some real gems that support the Society's interpretation of those verses.

    regards

    scholar BA MA Studies in Religion

    p.

  • Earnest
    Earnest

    Hi Alan,

    So far you have not presented an iota of argument about why context indicates that keliy ought to be rendered in verses 7 and 18 different from verse 10 in the NWT. I have no argument with rendering keliy as "articles" in 36:10, or in a vacuum rendering 36:7, 18 as "utensils", but the claim is made that the NWT is consistent in translating specific Hebrew words into unique, specific English words as long as context permits, but neither you nor "scholar" has given a single bit of argument about why the context of verse 10 is so different from that of verses 7 and 18 that it is justifed (in NWT Translation Committee terms) to render the word keliy differently in the one verse.

    Isn't it peculiar how two people can see things so differently. Knowing that the NWT translates keliy as utensil(s) when it refers to something sacred, and article(s) when it refers to something valuable, it seems glaringly obvious to me why it should be translated as articles in verse 10 and utensils in verses 7 and 18. It almost seems an insult to your intelligence to spell out what is obvious to me so please understand it is not meant in that spirit. And if we still cannot agree then let us accept that either you or I have a blind spot in this matter (and it ain't me ).

    In verse 10 the expression is keliy chemdah which is translated as desirable articles.

    The word chemdah comes from the root word chemed meaning to desire, take pleasure in as a verb, and a desire or delight as a noun (Hebrew and English Lexicon of the OT, Brown, Driver, Briggs, 1929, p.326). The NWT translates chemdah as desirable in 22 of the 25 occurrences, desired once (2 Chronicles 21:20), desire once (Daniel 11:37) and dainty [bread] once (Daniel 10:3). All the references in Chronicles (except 21:20 above) refer to desirable articles but the sense can also be derived from the other scriptures:

    Ezra 8:27 "...as desirable [chemdah] as gold."

    Daniel 11:8 "...their desirable articles [chemdah keliy] of silver and of gold..."

    Daniel 11:38 "...by means of gold and by means of silver and by means of precious stone and by means of desirable things [chemdah]."

    Daniel 11:43 "...hidden treasures of the gold and the silver and over all the desirable [chemdah] things of Egypt."

    The fact that the NWT consistently translates keliy as article(s) when it refers to something valuable is easily verified. To cite a few examples:

    "articles [keliy] of silver and articles [keliy] of gold" - Genesis 24:53; Exodus 3:22; 11:2; 12:35; 2 Samuel 8:10; 1 Kings 10:25; 2 Chronicles 9:24.

    "articles [keliy] of copper" - Joshua 6:19,24; 2 Samuel 8:10; Ezekiel 27:13.

    "article [keliy] of skin [leather]" - Leviticus 13:49,52,53,57-59; Numbers 31:20.

    In the three instance of keliy under consideration in 2 Chronicles 36 they all refer to keliy "of the house of Jehovah" and "of the house of the (true) God" so without further qualification we would expect the NWT to translate them as "utensils" as reference to something sacred. In verse 10 there is the additional qualification that they are "desirable keliy" which does not apply to keliy in verses 7 & 18 and so it is consistent to translate that instance of keliy as "desirable articles". QED

    Jonsson's argument is valid whether keliy is rendered "articles", "vessels", "utensils", "stuff" or anything else consistent with context.

    Perhaps I should rephrase my conclusion : The three references to keliy in 2 Chronicles 36:7,10,18 do not in themselves establish how many deportations of "articles" occurred. This can only be established by consideration of additional information. Happy ?

    scholar:

    I applaud Earnest in posting the section from this commentary series on the book of 2 Chronicles as it contains some interesting observations.

    I appreciate your applause but the onus is really on you to post the information to which you refer. As Alan said, I'm just a "regular guy" with a regular job. To get hold of your references I must cycle to the library in my lunchtime and then copy it out or borrow the publication if I am allowed. I have no problem with that in itself - I enjoy the research. But I do think you should carry your own load. That having been said I would not discourage you from citing academic papers to support your contentions. Chronology is an academic subject. But if you wish to be considered seriously you must make your information available and demonstrate you are using it in context.

    Earnest

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Scholar,

    In short, re(s)pecting the Jehoiakim's third year and the subject of the seventy years there remains considerable disagreement.

    In which case, the moral obligation rests with any, even closet apologists of WTS theology, to answer the question that I and later AChristian have posed, in fact I will quote him verbatim:

    At this point I think you owe it to the readers of this thread to answer the question which Hillary has posed to you on more than one occasion. I think that question went something like this: Since the historicity of the Society's 607 B.C.E. date for Jerusalem's destruction by Babylon is far from certain, do you feel it is right for the Society to demand that all Jehovah's Witnesses shun anyone who openly doubts the accuracy of that date, and the prophetic interpretations which are built upon it?

    Why is it Scholar, that you consistently sidestep this question which lies at the heart of all these discussions, in fact is the very basis for these discussions? Millions of WTS adherents over the past hundred years have sacrificed all that is precious to them on the basis of WTS chronology, a chronology that you admit is not an exact science to say the least. They have all eventually become victims of 'new light' which have consigned their grandparents and parents, and no doubt a couple of more generations to very shallow graves on the fast flowing current of WTS dreams.

    Many people looking in at his thread with interest will no doubt be looking for a 'Scholarly' reason as to why they should continue supporting WTS thinking over this matter. You will notice that I have been unswerving in avoiding chronological matters, which frankly interest me greatly, but I have sought to stick with the crux of the matter, which you seem intent on avoiding. Let Greg Stafford lay your path for you if you lack the moral courage to do so yourself.

    HS

    Edited by - hillary_step on 6 February 2003 23:24:18

  • scholar
    scholar

    hilary_step

    I do not believe that the Society's historicity for the date 607 is uncertain. To the contrary I firmly believe that this date is well established as it is firmly based on biblical and secular evidence. However. I too share your concern because chronology is after all mostly interpretation , it should not become primary doctrine. Therefore, a Christian should be free to exercise one's conscience when it comes to accepting dates and a prophetic interpretation based on such dates.

    You have raised the matter of Greg Stafford and I wish to make some pertinent comments. No doubt you are referring to his recently published Three Dissertations which has caused some sensation within the Witness community. Greg asked me prior to the publication of this book for a contribution of an article or treatise on chronology. I responded by forwarding some material to him but was unable to go further owing to my academic studies. He subsequently produced his own anaysis of the Society's chronology in company with other matters. I applaud Greg's courage and his enthusiasm for research and learning however I feel he has been poorly advised by his mentors. Greg lacks experience as he has been in the Truth for a short time and is unable to properly comprehend at this time the theological landscape in which as Christians we all must traverse. Perhaps because I have a Kantian view of Jehovah's organization, years of experience, an intimate association with some of the anointed and a commitment to the academic study of religion, philosophy and theology, my appreciation and faith in Jehovah's arrangements causes me to wonder and to ponder.

  • scholar
    scholar

    Earnest

    I thank you for your criticism of my postings. I have said before that I am unskilled in computer word processing as during my tertiary experience all of my assignents were produce on a word processor not a computer and I do not touch type. This year beginning March I wiil be using my computer for writing my assignments and so I hope that my skills will be to your standard. I have endeavoured to cite references properly but have found that none bothers to read them. If a person needs assistance in obtaining a journal article or other material then they can email me and I will oblige with a copy.

    However, theological research is hard work, it rquires investment in time and perhaps in the purchasing of books. I am not interested in fast food or making things too easy. This forum is for those who are interested in Bible Research and so it is incumbent on those readers to be able to do some research themselves. In my postings I do give reasonable references but I do not wish to pose and give lengthy replies just to impress others. If ypou want specific information then ask for it or find that information yourself. I have spent years studying chronology and no one was around to hold my hand and so I enjoyed the thrill of the intellectual challenge. You should deprive yourself of similar enjoyment.

    enjoy

    scholar BA MA Studies in Religion

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Hi Earnest,

    :: So far you have not presented an iota of argument about why context indicates that keliy ought to be rendered in verses 7 and 18 different from verse 10 in the NWT. I have no argument with rendering keliy as "articles" in 36:10, or in a vacuum rendering 36:7, 18 as "utensils", but the claim is made that the NWT is consistent in translating specific Hebrew words into unique, specific English words as long as context permits, but neither you nor "scholar" has given a single bit of argument about why the context of verse 10 is so different from that of verses 7 and 18 that it is justifed (in NWT Translation Committee terms) to render the word keliy differently in the one verse.

    : Isn't it peculiar how two people can see things so differently. Knowing that the NWT translates keliy as utensil(s) when it refers to something sacred, and article(s) when it refers to something valuable, it seems glaringly obvious to me why it should be translated as articles in verse 10 and utensils in verses 7 and 18. It almost seems an insult to your intelligence to spell out what is obvious to me so please understand it is not meant in that spirit. And if we still cannot agree then let us accept that either you or I have a blind spot in this matter (and it ain't me ).

    Earnest, this doesn't have to be this complicated. The argument you gave here still does not address my points above. Nor does it address the points I raised in an earlier post:

    Your conclusion is based only on the fact that the New World Translation in seven out of eight instances translates keliy chemdah as "desirable articles". It isn't based on context, since there is nothing in the context that allows one to tell just what "articles" are being referred to. All you've really shown is that it's reasonable for the NWT to use "valuable articles" in verse 10. You haven't shown why it's best to use "utensils" in verses 7 and 18. To form a valid conclusion you would have to show precisely why "articles" does not fit in verses 7 and 18. In other words, you'd have to show why using "utensils" in verses 7 and 18 is better than using "articles" -- but you can't, because there is no textual or contextual way of doing that.

    Let me ask you a few questions, which if your arguments are correct, you should have no trouble in answering:

    What context in 2 Chron. 36:5-8 indicates that keliy in verse 7 should not be rendered "articles"?

    What context in 2 Chron. 36:11-21 indicates that keliy in verse 18 should not be rendered "articles"?

    How do you know from the context that 36:7 refers only to, as you claim, "something sacred" and does not include "desirable sacred things"?

    When 36:18 mentions "all the keliy", it obviously includes things that are sacred, valuable or both. Why should keliy not be rendered "articles", but "utensils"?

    Do you think that verse 10 excludes things that are sacred?

    Why do you claim that it's best to use "utensils" in verses 7 and 18, rather than "articles"?

    Why do you claim that "articles" does not fit in verses 7 and 18?

    Your overall argument implies that keliy means one thing in verse 7, something else in verse 10, and in verse 18 the same thing as in verse 7. How do you know that these meanings are not all the same? Note that this is asking the same question as I posed in my first quoted statement above.

    If I told you that on my wife's 45th birthday I gave her "some things", and on her 46th birthday I gave her "valuable things", and on her 47th I gave her "a lot of things", would my use of "valuable" imply in any way that what I gave her the other two times was not valuable?

    The overall flow of narrative in 2 Chron. 36 is to briefly describe, in chronological order, certain main features of the reigns of Jehoiakim, Jehoiachin and Zedekiah. During Jehoiakim's reign, "some" keliy were deported. During Jehoiachin's reign, "desirable" keliy were deported. During Zedekiah's reign, "all" remaining keliy were deported. Does this sequence not suggest to you that the keliy in each case were in exactly the same category, i.e., "stuff from the temple"? Explain your answer.

    Do you think that it is reasonable to claim that the keliy taken during Jehoiakim's reign did not include valuable things? Indeed, some very valuable things? Or would Nebuchadnezzar settle for things of little value?

    :: Jonsson's argument is valid whether keliy is rendered "articles", "vessels", "utensils", "stuff" or anything else consistent with context.

    : Perhaps I should rephrase my conclusion : The three references to keliy in 2 Chronicles 36:7,10,18 do not in themselves establish how many deportations of "articles" occurred. This can only be established by consideration of additional information. Happy ?

    Not in the least. These references, in context, most certainly do establish how many deportations occurred: one during Jehoiakim's reign, another during Jehoiachin's reign, and a third at the end of Zedekiah's reign. Additional information certainly confirms the conclusion, but the conclusion would be valid even if no other information existed.

    I will be posting an answer to "scholar" on his latest bit of nonsense. It will contain excerpts from the very long discussion of Daniel 1:1 and related texts in Keil-Delitsch.

    AlanF

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    "scholar" wrote:

    : I wish to respond to some of your comments in recent days. Firstly, my intention in bringing attention to Jonsson's argument as discussed in his Appendix article on the Three deporatations to Babylon was to highlight his mischevious use of the generic Hebrew word 'keliy'.

    You've completely failed to realize your intent. You've also maligned a host of Bible translators and commentators who agree with Jonsson's notions.

    : The fact of the matter is that this word is subject to both idiom and a wide choice of meaning which is dependent on the opinion and interpretation of the translator whatever his religious or theological bias.

    That's not what you've been claiming. You've been claiming that the NWT renderings are the best and the only correct ones. Naturally, you have not presented any actual arguments, but only bald assertions.

    : My beef with Jonsson is that he begins his book with the following intention: "Because of its subject matter, in this book Bible texts are generally quoted from the New World Translation". Why did not Jonsson base his argument regarding the three deporations using the generic word 'vessels' instead of using the words for keliy as rendered in the NWT in 2Chronicles 36:7, 10.18?

    For one thing, because many other Bible translations use the same English word in each of the three verses. For another, because his argument stands regardless of what words are used in each verse. I quoted in a post above from the New Jerusalem Bible which uses different expressions in all three verses.

    : He chose not to do so because such word choice as utensils and desirable articles would invalidate his argument.

    Only in your little mind. Earnest has been arguing that verses 7 and 10 should be rendered using different words. Your argument demands that they be translated by the same words. But of course, the NWT uses different words, which invalidates your argument.

    Are you really so stupid that you can't see such a simple point? I don't think so. I think you're just stubborn, because you think you've found a flaw in the argument of a JW-critic, and you're not about to let go of it. Don't you not know that stubbornness is as the sin of witchcraft?

    : But he misleads the reader by quoting the adjective 'desirable' instead of the qualified noun 'articles'.

    "Desirable" has nothing to do with anything. In each verse, it is obvious that sacred and valuable items were deported. Are you prepared to claim that the "desirable articles" of verse 10 were not sacred? Or that the items in verses 7 and 18 were not both sacred and valuable? I think not.

    : What he should have done was to acknowledge the fact that the NWT along with other translations uses different words for these three verses

    Not quite. The NWT uses "utensils" in verse 7 and 10, and "articles" in verse 10.

    : and that some translations do not follow a consistent pattern in these three verses, the NWT and Green's Interlinear OT are examples of this practice.

    I agree: they are certainly not consistent. But again, in and of itself this is not a problem for the intelligent reader, who ought to be able to see that it was "sacred and valuable stuff from the temple" that was deported on all three occasions.

    : I believe that to base an argument namely that there were three deportations on a generic word is both foolish and shows poor scholarship.

    The argument is not based on "a generic word". It is based on the fact that three deportations of keliy from the temple are recorded.

    : In my last post I mistakenly referred to the wrong commentary in the WBC series. The correct reference is as follows : 2 KINGS, Vol.13, T.R. Hobbs, p.343 with the heading 'Attack and Deportation (24:1-20). and p.356 with the heading 'Jerusalem Destroyed and Second Deporation ' (25:1-30). I apologize for any confusion.

    Given your ineluctable penchant for failing to quote your claimed sources, and the fact that you still fail to quote your source here. your apology is worthless.

    : I applaud Earnest in posting the section from this commentary series on the book of 2 Chronicles as it contains some interesting observations.

    Earnest, although not claiming to be a scholar, certainly puts you to shame. He's done your work for you. Had you not been so bloody lazy, you would have posted the relevant material and saved Earnest some work and yourself some embarrassment.

    : One of several pertains to the view that the Chronicler was content "to present the themes of exile and tribute that characterize his treatment of the last four kings of Judah" ( p.299. pars.1 and 5). In this, I commend Jonsson for drawing attention to the subject of the tribute in his Appendix,

    Good!

    : such definitive discussion has not appeared in the Society's literature to my knowledge.

    Actually, definitive discussion on most topics is not a characteristic of Society literature. Indeed, a very good description of this literature is given by Alan Rogerson in Millions Now Living Will Never Die: A Study of Jehovah's Witnesses, (Constable, London, 1969, p. 116):

    A long acquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual `twilight zone.' That is, most of their members, even their leaders, are not well educated and not very intelligent. Whenever their literature strays onto the fields of philosophy, academic theology, science or any severe mental discipline their ideas at best mirror popular misconceptions, at worst they are completely nonsensical.

    A particularly good example of completely nonsensical ideas is the Witnesses' so-called 1914 chronology.

    : Secondly, this commentator and in agreement with the scholars who wrote the commentary on Jeremiah in the WBC series confirm that there differing opinions about the beginning, lenghth and end of the seventy years. (Note coment p.301,par.4).

    Wow! I did not know that!

    : It would seem that despite Jonsson's research on the seventy years and the so called 'factual evidence ' underpinning his chronology, it has not influenced the scholarly community one iota.

    Not necessarily true. In the 1998 revised edition of Handbook of Biblical Chronology, Jack Finegan updated many of his arguments about the 70 years of servitude, compared to the original 1964 edition. His take on the 70 years is identical to Jonsson's. Additionally, the highly respected Cambridge Ancient History agrees with all of Jonsson's essential arguments, but does not go into nearly the detail Jonsson does. Many other scholars agree with the basic conclusions about dating events in the Neo-Babylonian period.

    : One must remember that Jonsson first published in 1983. So. for nearly twenty years his views have not reinterpreted biblical history despite the fact that his views are in some degree consonant with traditional chronology.

    One also must remember that it takes a long time for a diverse scholarly community to reach a consensus, if they ever do, about a subject as complicated and having as long a history of discussion as this.

    The other side of the coin is that the Watchtower organization and its predecessors have been publishing a chronology for some 130 years that has not obtained one iota of acceptance from any scholars at all. So if your argument is valid, then it is even more telling against Watchtower views.

    : In short, repecting the Jehoiakim's third year and the subject of the seventy years there remains considerable disagreement.

    Do tell.

    : I am well pleased that Alan F respects Keil's and Delitzsch's Commentary on the Old Testament

    I certainly do. However, neither they nor any other scholars are completely authoritative. Indeed, some of their commentary has been proved wrong by more recent scholars, such as their dating of Nebuchadezzar's accession to 606 B.C. and the fall of Babylon to 536 B.C. And of course, any commentary is by nature just opinion that attempts to explain a set of facts. I always look to a variety of commentaries and, most important, look at the arguments they present, and certainly do not accept an argument on mere "authority".

    As a Jehovah's Witness, though, you are operating by a different set of rules. For you, authority is everything and arguments are nothing. You don't believe this? Try presenting arguments to your fellow JWs that conflict with the authority of Watchtower leaders -- you won't get to square one and you'll almost certainly be disfellowshipped. So much for a claim of intellectual integrity.

    : as in the case of the commentator's comments on the first two verses in Daniel and the first verse of chapter 2, there are some real gems that support the Society's interpretation of those verses.

    Not at all. Not a single word supports the Society's interpretation. Indeed, Keil & Delitzsch argue specifically that Daniel was deported to Babylon early in Jehoiakim's reign, that temple articles were deported at that time, that these deportations occurred in Nebuchadnezzar's accession year, and that the training of Daniel and company in the ways of Babylon was completed in Nebuchadnezzar's 2nd year, after about three years of training.

    Here are some excerpts from Commentary on the Old Testament (Vol. 9, Biblical Commentary on the Book of Daniel, pp. 58-). I'm bolding some relevant points:

    When Nebuchadnezzar first besieged Jerusalem he not only took away the holy vessels of the temple, but also commanded that several Israelitish youths of noble lineage, among whom was Daniel, should be carried to Babylon and there educated in the science and wisdom of the Chaldeans for service in his court, which they entered upon when their education was completed. This narrative, in which the stedfast attachment of Daniel and his three friends to the religion of their fathers, and the blessings which flowed to them from this fidelity (vers. 8-17), are particularly set forth, forms the historical introduction to the following book, whilst it shows how Daniel reached the place of influence which he held, a place which was appointed for him according to the divine counsel, during the Babylonish exile, for the preservation and development of the Old Testament kingdom of God. It concludes (ver. 21) with the remark, that Daniel continued to occupy this place till the first year of Cyrus.

    Vers. 1 and 2. Of this expedition of Nebuchadnezzar against Jerusalem it is related in the second book of Kings (ch. xxiv. 1): "In his days Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came up, and Jehoiakim became his servant three years; then he turned and rebelled against him;" and in the second book of Chronicles (ch. xxxvi. 6): "Against him came up Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and bound him in fetters to carry him to Babylon. Nebuchadnezzar also carried of the vessels of the house of the Lord to Babylon, and put them in his temple at Babylon." That both of these statements refer to the same expedition of Nebuchadnezzar against Jehoiakim mentioned here, appears not only from the statement of the book of Chronicles agreeing with ver. 2 of this chapter, namely, that Nebuchadnezzar took away a part of the sacred vessels of the temple to Babylon, and there put them in the temple of his god, but also from the circumstance that, beyond all doubt, during the reign of Jehoiakim there was not a second siege of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar. It is true, indeed, that when Jehoiakim threw off the yoke at the end of three years' subjection, Nebuchadnezzar sent Chaldean, Aramaean, Moabitish, and Ammonitish hosts against him for the purpose of bringing him into subjection, but Jerusalem was not again laid siege to by these hosts till the death of Jehoiakim. Not till his son Jehoiachin ascended the throne did the servants of Nebuchadnezzar again come up against Jerusalem and besiege it. When, during the siege, Nebuchadnezzar himself came up, Jehoiachin surrendered to him after three months, and was, along with the chief men of his kingdom, and the strength of the population of Jerusalem and Judah, and the treasures of the royal palace and of the temple, carried down to Babylon (2 Kings xxiv. 2-16). The year, however, in which Nebuchadnezzar, in the reign of Jehoiakim, first took Jerusalem and carried away a part of the treasures of the temple to Babylon, is stated neither in the second book of Kings nor in Chronicles, but may be pretty certainly determined by the statements of Jeremiah (ch. xlvi. 2, xxv. 1 ff., xxxvi. 1 ff.). According to Jer. xlvi. 2, Nebuchadnezzar smote the Egyptian king Pharaoh-Necho with his army at Carchemish in the fourth year of the reign of Jehoiakim. That same year is spoken of (Jer. xxv. 1) as the first year of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, and is represented by Jeremiah not only as a critical period for the kingdom of Judah; but also, by the prediction that the Lord would bring His servant Nebuchadnezzar against Judah and against its inhabitants, and against all the nations round about, that He would make Judah a desolation, and that these nations would serve the king of Babylon seventy years (vers.2-11), he without doubt represents it as the beginning of the seventy years of Babylonish exile...

    The first capture of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar cannot therefore have taken place in the third, but must have been in the fourth year of Jehoiakim, i.e. in the year 606 B.C. This, however, appears to stand in opposition to the statement of the first verse of this chapter: "In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim ba' Nebuchadnezzar to Jerusalem." The modern critics accordingly number this statement among the errors which must disprove the genuineness of this book (see above, p. 35 f.). The apparent opposition between the language of Daniel (ch. i. 1) that Nebuchadnezzar undertook his first expedition against Jerusalem in the third year of Jehoiakim, and the affirmation of Jeremiah, according to which not only was Pharaoh-Necho slain by Nebuchadnezzar at the Euphrates in the fourth year of Jehoiakim, but also in this same year Nebuchadnezzar's invasion of Judea is for the first time announced, cannot be resolved either by the hypothesis of a different mode of reckoning the years of the reign of Jehoiakim and of Nebuchadnezzar, nor by the supposition that Jerusalem had been already taken by Nebuchadnezzar before the battle of Carchemish, in the third year of Jehoiakim. The first supposition is set aside by the circumstance that there is no certain analogy for it. The latter supposition is irreconcilable with Jer. xxv. and xxxvi...

    I should comment here that K&D is almost certainly wrong that there is no "certain analogy" for "the hypothesis of a different mode of reckoning the years of the reign of Jehoiakim and of Nebuchadnezzar". First, Daniel was an official of the Babylonian empire, and so it is entirely reasonable that he would count the years of a king's reign according to the Babylonian system, which reckoned a king's regnal years on a Nisan-Nisan basis, and began with the "accession" year, followed by year one, and so forth. However, the Jews seem to have used a non-accession-year system and dated king's reigns on a Tishri-Tishri basis, so that the king was counted as having ascended the throne in his first year rather than an accession year. Thus the two dating systems would be different by half a year in time and one year in numbering. Thus an event that Daniel says occurred in Jehoiakim's third year would have occurred sometime during his fourth year by Jewish reckoning.

    Second, Jeremiah 52:28, 29 speaks of Nebuchadnezzar taking captives to Babylon in his 7th and 18th years, whereas 2 Kings 24:12; 25:8 and Jer. 52:12 indicate that Nebuchadnezzar attacked and took captives in this 8th and 19th years. The reason for this discrepancy is likely that the 52nd chapter of Jeremiah was not written by the prophet but by someone else (Jer. 51:64 states: "Down to this point are the words of Jeremiah) who had access to Babylonian records and used them verbatim in 52:28-30. Chapter 52 happens to be almost word for word identical to 2 Kings 24:18 to 25:30, except for 52:28-30. Thus it appears that someone took the material from 2 Kings, perhaps added a Babylonian report about how many captives were taken in what year, and added it to the end of Jeremiah's scroll. Since Jewish and Babylonian dating methods differ, this explains why Jer. 52:12 can speak of Nebuchadnezzar's 19th year as the destruction of Jerusalem and Jer. 52:29 can speak of Nebuchadnezzar's 18th year as one in which he took Jewish captives.

    K&D goes on to argue for several pages that the "third year" of Jehoiakim mentioned in Daniel 1:1 should be understood something like this: In the third year of Jehoiakim, Nebuchadnezzar began an expedition against Jerusalem and proceeded to lay siege to it. Therefore, Nebuchadnezzar began his expedition in Jehoiakim's third year and finally took the city in Jehoiakim's fourth year. I don't buy this argument.

    So, "scholar", it appears that you have some work to do to support your claims about what K&D say. Your usual mere assertions will not cut it. You must not be lazy, and must type in whatever material supports your claims, just as a real -- and honest -- scholar would.

    AlanF

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