Ever hear of the "Three-Brain"???

by WingCommander 51 Replies latest jw friends

rem

Mulan,
That is exactly the reason why a DOUBLE blind test is necessary. This helps eliminate experimenter bias. You are not supposed to know what the patient is holding either. The best circumstance would be for nobody in the room to know. The food item or metal or whatever could be put inside a box so no one can see inside. Of course you'd also have to account for weight and smell and other controls. Unfortunately it is not easy to do a double blind experiment, but only when you have full control can you see what is really happening. This is standard practice in any good science experiment.
No one, to my knowledge, has ever discounted that seeing negative and positive pictures can change muscle response. That seems pretty reasonable.
2000 BC
Here, eat this root. 1000 BC That root is heathen. Here, say this prayer. 1805 AD That prayer is superstition. Here, drink this potion. 1940 AD That potion is snake oil. Here, swallow this pill. 1985 AD
That pill is ineffective. Here, take this antibiotic. 2000 AD That antibiotic doesn't work anymore. Here, eat this root....................
That sounds nice and all, but it's just a folk-wisdom story. It's not based on fact. The fact is that many herbal remedies are being pulled from the market or are being scrutinized because they are shown to not only be inneffective, but also dangerous because their potency is not stringently controlled. Add that to the fact that they can interact with other drugs and you see a potential for danger to an uneducated public. Herbal medication is just a fad in a long list of alternative remedies throughout history. It will go out of style, just like every other alternative health practice that you addressed above in the quote. It is the scientific method and double blind tests that has proven those former health remedies to be snake oil. The scientific method is still doing it today, but like you said, people will believe no matter what the evidence shows. Anecdotes carry a lot of weight with most people. If it helps you, or someone, that is fine. But the important thing is to understand exactly what is helping the person. Is it really the treatment, or is it a placebo? You wouldn't want to mask a dangerous medical condition with a placebo. That's the danger I see, and it has been documented that lives have been lost in this manner. rem
Mulan

That sounds nice and all, but it's just a folk-wisdom story. It's not based on fact. The fact is that many herbal remedies are being pulled from the market or are being scrutinized because they are shown to not only be inneffective, but also dangerous because their potency is not stringently controlled. Add that to the fact that they can interact with other drugs and you see a potential for danger to an uneducated public.

They are being pulled because the pharmaceutical industry is putting pressure on Congress and on the FDA to get them pulled. They DO work. The pharm. companies cannot market natural products. They can't be regulated.
It's safer to take a dose of Valerian Root than to take Valium that has been altered. The main ingredient is the same. Works the same, and is much cheaper.
The ephedra thing is just so ridiculous. Read the labels on any cold or asthma medicine. They contain a form of ephedra, chemically altered, so it can be regulated as a drug. The dosage is much higher than any herbal product I've seen or marketed. Of course you can overdose and damage your heart or other things, but you could drink a whole bottle of children's Sudafed too, or take a whole bottle of them. The individual taking it, has to take some responsibility.
The Chinese have been using Ma Huang (ephedra) for 5000 years, with no problems. Why do you think it suddenly is a problem in this country? Lots of attorneys and lawsuits here.........people are suing because they have an adverse reaction. Or they get publicity because their anorexic daughter died taking 100 mg of ephedra, to help her lose more weight. Was it the ephedra, or was it the anorexia that killed her? And 100 mg.? That is way too much .............read labels. Again........the individual taking it, has to take some responsibility.
The same with Ginkgo, St. John's Wort and more. Try telling someone in Europe that St. John's Wort doesn't work. It's a prescription item there.
They can publish studies that support any idea they want it to. Doesn't make it true.
Venice and I have argued these points on this board relentlessly. I am of this opinion: "A person convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still."
Remember, I am an herbalist, and will defend herbs and their benefits, and most alternative therapies too.
As to bio kinesiology, all I am trained in, is muscle testing. That's all I meant from the beginning. One of the people at the gathering I mentioned, suggested just what you said, so they put a lid on the paper plate, so I couldn't see what was on it. No difference. Same results. It's their body that does the reaction. It's easy to feel a positive. With a negative, the reaction is immediate, and I would not be able to control that. I have tested people that cannot be tested too. No matter what you ask, you get a wrong answer. I have done two like that .............ever. With one of them, I had her drink two large glasses of water, and then cleared the meridians, and was able to test her.
rem

Mulan,
I'd be more than convinced if a single double blind experiment would show that the technique is effective. I have nothing against the technique in itself. There is just nothing more than anecdotes to support it is all. Unfortunately anecdotes can be used to support ANY type of innefective therapy. That's how snake-oil salesmen got their start and were able to sell their worthless remedies. Only by using the scientific method can such claims be proven false. Remember, people honestly believed that those remedies worked too. There was no convincing them that what they bought was worthless. That is the power of placebo and anecdotes.
How can you differentiate between worthwile remedies and worthless ones without scientific testing? Do you think it is reasonable to ignore scientific testing because you believe a treatment works? Were people who believed in snake-oil reasonable to ignore scientifc evidence that their treatment didn't work?
I'm not sure why someone who is really interested in helping people would be against scientific evidence of the efficacy of a treatment. I think the placebo effect is just as amazing and interesting as any chi, vibration, or 'energy' that can be dreamed up.
My mind can be changed by scientific evidence. You put your faith in anecdotes and uncontrolled experiments and disregard controlled experiments. Who's already got their mind made up here? Why don't AK practitioners and herbalists put their remedies up to the same standard as prescribed medicines? If you claim that scientists are trying to disprove these remedies, then why don't the do their own controlled experiments to prove them wrong? Why do they continue to rely on anecdotal evidence?
Anyway, I don't mean to beat a dead horse. I guess since we are both coming from different ways of thinking and testing claims we may never agree on this topic. That is unless scientific, controlled testing can verify the claims of AK practitioners and herbalists.
rem
Edited by - rem on 22 November 2002 13:38:34
Mulan

Do you know how much the scientific testing costs? Hundreds of thousands of dollars. The pharm. companies are not going to spend that kind of money on testing natural products. They can't make any money from their research. Most proponents of natural products don't have the money or the backing to have the tests done either. (one exception later in this post)
I am not against it at all. They just don't do it.
How can you differentiate between worthwile remedies and worthless ones without scientific testing? Do you think it is reasonable to ignore scientific testing because you believe a treatment works? Were people who believed in snake-oil reasonable to ignore scientifc evidence that their treatment didn't work?
There are many scientific tests on pharmaceutical drugs that work. I acknowledge that. But the side effects of many of them are terrible. I have a friend with rheumatoid arthritis, who is taking several drugs that give her relief from pain, and keep her mobile, but she has to have constant tests on her liver, because the drugs are known to destroy the liver. With natural things, there are few if any, side effects.
I do know that Temple University Medical Center (or Hospital, ..........can't remember exactly the name) has just begun double blind studies with Transfer Factor on HIV and AIDS patients. That was exciting news. But there are thousands of doctors that are using Transfer Factor (isolated and extracted from bovine colostrum) in their practices and finding it works amazingly well.
More on Transfer Factor to all who are interested: http://www.4tf.com/k
I would never argue the placebo effect. I totally believe in that too. I used to give my son a chewable vitamin C when he couldn't sleep, and tell him it was a children's sleeping pill. Worked everytime.
Edited by - mulan on 22 November 2002 13:52:0
rem

Mulan,
Cool idea about the vitamin C sleeping pill!
I would probably disagree that herbal medicine is prohibitively expensive to test. I mean, people are making money off of this stuff, there is no doubt about that. A good scientific test should not cost a lot of money. Most of the cost in pharmacudicals comes from R&D, not the testing phases. Even a 9 year old girl had her double-blind experiment published in a reputable journal, and that was her shcool science project. The important thing is that the controls are tight... otherwise it's not worth the time to do the experiment.
I also take issue with your statement that natural remedies have little to no side effects. That is a demonstrably false statement. Also, there seems to be a misunderstanding of what is 'natural'. Pharmaceudical drugs are just as 'natural' as herbal remedies. The difference is that the active ingredient is isolated and purified. Then the dosage can be accurately measured. There is nothing artificial about this - for the most part there are no man-made chemicals being passed off as drugs. There may be some exceptions to this, of course, but for the most part, drugs come from natural plant and animal sources and are refined.
The problem with herbal medicines is not so much that some are not effective as that their dosage is not closely monitored and measured. This means that it is difficult to tell exactly how much medicine one is really taking. Then add on top of that their interaction with other drugs and possible masking of real medical problems because people choose to go to an herbalist instead of their medical doctor.
I believe there should be much more regulation on such medication. Even if there are honest herbalists, such as yourself, out there, there is just too much room for quacks to run amok because of the lack of controls over claims without evidentiary backing.
rem
Mulan

Agreed. Absolutely!
The side effects issue is controversial. I deal only food grade herbs, so I can truthfully say there is no more side effect than eating too much garlic or too many carrots. You might have bad breath, or yellow skin.
I know there are other grades of herbs that are more volatile.
The items I mainly sell are for treatment of parasites (much safer than the drug treatments, and just as effective) and a tea to relieve constipation. I have about 700 products I market, but those are by far the biggest sellers.
link

Mulan,
My wife has managed to shrink a malignant tumour (to the size of a pea so far) using only homeopathic and other natural remedies and processes. Most of the people she started out with who were diagnosed with this condition are now dead. Neither her nor I are the least bit interested in the scientific explanation behind her improvement in health and in fact we think that the belief in it by itself had a positive effect.
I will never cease to be amazed by the people who ask to see all the data and the results of the laboratory controlled testing of any type of natural medicine or processes. Never once in all my long life have I heard of one patient ask his doctor to see the same data for the drug he was just prescribed.
Within the last seven days a neighbour of mine has died because the drugs given him for an unrelated ailment gave him kidney failure. I bet he never asked to see the test data and check the side effects.
Ill take my chances with things that I can see working rather than take the drugs I can see killing people.
link
rem

link,
I would be surprised if there were any side effects to homeopathic remedies since they are just basically water. Many homeopathic remedies do not contain even one molecule of the original diluted medication.
I'm glad that your wife is doing better.
rem
VeniceIT

I would be surprised if there were any side effects to homeopathic remedies since they are just basically water. Many homeopathic remedies do not contain even one molecule of the original diluted medication.

Homeopathies do not contain ANY of the substance, and yes is mainly water and alcohol. What makes them so effective though is that they are Charged with the FREQUENCY of the said product. Therefore making them very potent, as well as cost effective.
This is similar to many BioResonance machines that are used medically through out Europe especially Germany. This machine uses electrodes to deliver the wanted frequency to the body.
BioResonance and Quantum Medicine are just coming on the scene in the US. They are used through out Europe. MD's in this country are realizing the need to get on board with some of the new technology before the alternative DR's get it, because the results are tremendous and American people are demanding better care, and doing their own research no longer leaving it ALL up to the Dr's which is putting great pressure on them.
The US Dr.'s although having made great strides take a while to adopt things that are known to work in other countries. The 'anesthesia' and 'antiseptics' subjects are just one of many (Michael Crichtons book '5 Patients')
Ven
Edited by - VeniceIT on 25 November 2002 0:11:7
larc

Venice, how do you charge water with a frequency? I have never heard of such a thing. As far as I know, frequencies go hither and yon. My voice is on a frequency and it disipates quickly. Light is a frequency that can travel great distances, but it can't be stored somewhere. Radio, tv, radar, and sonar frequencies also travel, but can't be stored as far as I know. So, what frequency on the entire spectrum of frequencies is stored in water, and how can this happen?

Ever hear of the "Three-Brain"???

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