Russell the messenger

by Beans 41 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • rebel
    rebel

    From my recent research, didn't Russell teach:

    1.Pyramidology

    2.1874 and then 1915 as the end of the world - not the time of Christ's presence

    3. Leviathan was a locomotive

    4.Blacks will turn white in the Millenium Reign

    5.He would go to star Alcyone

    6.Michael the Archangel was the Pope

    7.He celebrated birithdays & Christmas

    8. He used the cross & crown as WT emblems

    If the above is true, why would God have chosen him as his servant to provide food to us lesser ones. It would be a bit odd to use a person who was incapable of getting the most basic teaching correct. I started to study some of his teachings when I had doubts about the WTBTS initially. However, the more research I did, the more I became uncomfortable with what he taught. There is so much conflicting information. Did he, or did he not, treat his wife badly? Did he believe he WAS the Faithful and Discreet Slave (some say he did, some say he didn't). Why did he make such false predictions for the end of the world, when Deuteronomy 18:20-22 specifically warns against it.

    I would be interested in finding out where I could get reliable, unbiased information about him.

    xxR

  • RR
    RR
    I have a question....do the bible students believe they could i nterpret the bible on thier own.....or do they feel they could not understand it without Russell' help?

    Interpreting the BIble ion their own and understanding the BIble on their own ater two different issues. Most Bible STudents would agree that had they not read Russell's writings they would not have understood FULLY God's plans and purposes.

    As far as interpreting? There are many BIble Students who have interpreted certain scriptures and events differently from those held by Russell.

    Also, do you except his pyrimidology as an exceptable guild?

    Honestly? I don't know any Bible Student who would put the Pyramid in front of the Bible as their guide. Personally, although I don't spend time on the pyramid, I must admit there is something to it!

    RR

  • gumby
    gumby

    Arguing the fact that Russell had some problems in thought or actions would not make some of ideas wrong.....although I personally don't follow him or others.

  • RR
    RR

    From my recent research, didn't Russell teach:

    1.Pyramidology

    Yes he did and your point is?

    2.1874 and then 1915 as the end of the world - not the time of Christ's presence

    Wrong on both counts!

    3. Leviathan was a locomotive

    Nope! Unless you have a reference to prove me otherwise

    4.Blacks will turn white in the Millenium Reign

    That was based on a secular newspaper article that Russell published in the Watch Tower. One must considered that being black was considered a curse. Russell wasnt a rascist, but that was the common belief in his day.

    5.He would go to star Alcyone

    I dont THINK so.

    6.Michael the Archangel was the Pope

    Based on the account found in Revelation 12 ONLY. Many scholars believed that "Michael" spoken of in Revelation 12 was not THE Michael, but anti-christ, and since Pastor Russell and many Protestants believe that the Pope is anti-christ the "Michael" would be the Pope in this case. Put aside the "revelation Climax" book and read chpt 12 and tell me what you think.

    7.He celebrated birithdays & Christmas

    And your point is?

    8. He used the cross & crown as WT emblems

    Both these emblems are scriptural. Jesus said, He who endured unto the end will be given a crown of life, how does one do that? By picking up their cross, denying themselves and following Christ.

    If the above is true, why would God have chosen him as his servant to provide food to us lesser ones. It would be a bit odd to use a person who was incapable of getting the most basic teaching correct. I started to study some of his teachings when I had doubts about the WTBTS initially. However, the more research I did, the more I became uncomfortable with what he taught.

    Perhaps you need to study some more!

    There is so much conflicting information. Did he, or did he not, treat his wife badly?

    Define "badly"

    Did he believe he WAS the Faithful and Discreet Slave (some say he did, some say he didn't).

    You wont find him admitting to it!

    Why did he make such false predictions for the end of the world, when Deuteronomy 18:20-22 specifically warns against it.

    He didnt predict the end of the world, the Scriptures did, he simply interpreted when he believed the Lords words in Matthew 24 would be fulfilled. Was he wrong in everything? This is what he admitted to:

    "This Volume sets forth, what its author has been preaching for over forty years, that the "Times of the Gentiles" chronologically ended in the fall of A.D. 1914. The expression, "Times of the Gentiles," in Bible usage signifies the years, or period of time, in which the Gentile nations of the world were to be permitted to have control, following the taking away of the typical kingdom from natural Israel, and filling the hiatus between that event and the establishment of Gods Kingdom in the hands of Messiah "whose right it is." #Eze 21:27

    We could not, of course, know in 1889, whether the date 1914, so clearly marked in the Bible as the end of the Gentile lease of power or permission to rule the world, would mean that they would be fully out of power at that time, or whether, their lease expiring, their eviction would begin. The latter we perceive to be the Lords program; and promptly in August, 1914, the Gentile kingdoms referred to in the prophecy began the present great struggle, which, according to the Bible, will culminate in the complete overthrow of all human government, opening the way for the full establishment of the Kingdom of Gods dear Son." [Scriptures Studies, volume 2, foreword]
    I would be interested in finding out where I could get reliable, unbiased information about him.

    That would be me! :)

  • onacruse
    onacruse
    There are many BIble Students who have interpreted certain scriptures and events differently from those held by Russell.

    Many years ago (late 70s) I ordered a set of Vol 1-6 reprints from Dawn Publications. (At the time, I was still a JW, but obviously was searching things out). A few months later I received a letter from a fellow in this area, and I invited him to stop by. He said he was a great-(great?)-grandson of Van Amburgh. As we talked, I asked some very pointed questions about current Bible Student beliefs. He surprised me with his tolerant viewpoints. Specifically, I asked him if The Divine Plan was still put forth for study, and, if so, how was all the obviously outdated information it contained reconciled? His response, as I recall, was something on the order of: "Each study group is free to decide that for themselves."

    Then, just a few months ago, after ordering some CDs from Chicago Bible Students, I received an unsolicited copy of Bible Study Review. Of course, I immediately examined it for any obvious Russellitism (is that even a word? LOL) and, again, I found its content to be fairly inclusive and tolerant. And yes, still advertising The Divine Plan.

    I noted under "How We're Organized" that it says: "Our local congregation is totally independent... The servants or ministers of our church are elected from within our local fellowship on an annual basis..."

    RR, how tolerant IS the Bible Students association? And, how DOES it view those portions of the Plan that do not meet with common sense or current events?

    Curiously,

    Craig

    Edited by - onacruse on 19 December 2002 20:51:43

  • gumby
    gumby

    RR, How about you give your input....fresh.....about what it is about C.T. Russell that you admire about and his importance. This perhaps would direct this conversation easier.

  • Utopian_Raindrops
    Utopian_Raindrops

    Please....I am trying to understand if Russell is considered a Prophet Of God?

    and if he is considered a Prophet Of God,,,,,Then how could he ever be wrong on prophecy?

    Also The Pyramid thing. Of course it could be acurate and still not be from Our Creator......remeber The Morning Stars Apluaded when Jehovah created the earth.......so guess who was hanging around when Jehovah did everything? Don't you think The Original Serpent picted a few things up?

    Since staying away from idols is a bible command....why would then Jehovah use one to teach His People? I think imperfect humans have a hard enough time figuring things out.

    ty RR

    Agape,

    Utopian_Raindrops

  • rebel
    rebel

    RR,

    I have never been comfortable with the fact that Jesus is Michael any more that I feel comfortable with him being the Pope. I admit, I really don't know.

    Are you saying pyramidology is still one of the Bible Students beliefs? I am not saying it is wrong, I don't know enough about it. When I first found out that Russell was interested in this subject, I was amazed. The JWs never tell you this and, if it was one of the main beliefs of their founder, they should discuss this openly.

    When I have read about Russell (various sources) he comes across as a very humble, mild man which is why I wanted to find out more about him. When Rutherford came to power, how many stayed with Russell's teachings? I know there was a certain amount of conflict and many BSs couldn't get along with Rutherford or his methods of running the organisation. As a JW, I assumed the headship was passed along from Russell to Rutherford in a smooth and loving manner - I was never aware of the frictions involved. I thought all previous presidents of the society all agreed and were in harmony - but then I was a JW for many years and swallowed everything they told me.

    From your remarks, I take it you think there is nothing wrong with celebrating Christmas or birthdays. Again, I don't have any opinion on this - I think you should be free to decide. It's just funny that Russell's present day organisation demonise it.

    And what about the cross and crown? Didn't Jesus die on a stake? Not that it really matters - he was executed and the instrument used isn't really that important. It's just that JWs make such a big point about this.

    Where would I get copies of his books?

    Many thanks

    xxR

  • RR
    RR
    RR, how tolerant IS the Bible Students association? And, how DOES it view those portions of the Plan that do not meet with common sense or current events?

    There are various camps of Bible Students, and these camps are made up of individuals, some more extreme than others. However that beinmg said, the ecclesias [congregations] themselves are very tolerant of those who may and do have differeing views.

    I know of qquite of few JW's who are now meeting with Bible Students, aqnd who are content, they may njot accept everything jot and tittle, but they enjoy their new found freedom in Christ to speak their minds without any backlash.

    Some classes are more extreme than others, some are very liberal, I would think differences would not be a major issues unless the one with the differences INSIST on making it an issue by monopolizing the meetings with his or her differences. And I don't meand asking such simple questions, I'm talking actually disrupting the studies, I have known a few who became orthodox Christians, and would disrupt the meetings by insisting we believe in the trinity.

    As far as C.T. Russell's Divine Plan? Most Bible Students accept it, and have no problem with it. We may differ in certain details as to how the plan will come about, especially within prophetic details, [which is always revealed in hindsight] the plan itself goes along just fine.

    RR

  • RR
    RR
    RR, How about you give your input....fresh.....about what it is about C.T. Russell that you admire about and his importance. This perhaps would direct this conversation easier.

    Hmmm ... how much time do you have? All I can say is that his "The Divine Plan of the Ages" is the BEST outline that I have ever studied, and believe me, I have studied quite a few.

    RR

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