Bash the Catholics here.

by JG 46 Replies latest jw friends

RevMalk

Ummmmmm, To get to the other side? Crap, wrong Joke..... The Chicken? Dammit! That wasn't until the 1800's I give up
A knaves religion is always the rottenest thing about him." John Ruskin, 19th-century British critic and author

clash_city_rockers

A Paduan,
This is where Rome Misunderstands the refomation consept of GRACE......
Rome believes that grace is infuesed or "injected" in to ones life thus the clause in Trent:
to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost
Rome teaches that grace is a substance (not solely a substance to be fair) but none the less a substance.
The biblical understanding of GRACE, which Romenist do not understand or maybe they surpress dishonestly, is that GRACE is a disposition or a favor from Jehovah God.
Eph.
2:9-10
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Romans 9:15-16
15 For He says to Moses, " WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
So you see the bible clearly teaches that GRACE is the favor of God on the account of Christ. Grace is not used in sa substance language. This also deposes of this silly notion of human ability on his own fallen free will to choose God with out the new birth, which is also connected to the idea of grace as a substance.
A Paduan, please read the bible so that you may be delivered from this wicked thinking.
fovor Dei proctor Christum,
jr
Edited by - clash_city_rockers on 8 October 2002 19:36:26
Mary

I don't hate Catholics, but they're just as wacky at the JWs. They're not supposed to use birth control because some idiot picked up on a scripture where God put to death some guy 5,000 years ago for "wasting his seed" upon the earth, instead of ensuring the family line would continue on, or some crap like that.
When you are studying to become a priest, you don't even read the bible, it's all the Catacysm book - that's it. And everything is tradition, tradition, tradition. And the Inquisition didn't put them in anyone's good books.............and of course, the child molestation crap is another reason..........no marriage for the priests.............
UnDisfellowshipped

I don't hate the Catholics either (I don't hate anyone).
I have love for everyone, however I hate the SIN and EVIL that people do.
Below are Scriptures in which Jesus was talking to the Scribes and Pharisees, but today they apply EQUALLY as well to the JW's, Catholics, Mormons, 7th Day Adventists, and other Man-Made Religions:
Mark 7:6: He answered them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, 'This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.
Mark 7:7: But in vain do they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'
Mark 7:8: "For you set aside the Commandment of God, and hold tightly to the tradition of men -- the washing of pitchers and cups, and you do many other such things."
Mark 7:9: He said to them, "Full well do you reject the Commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.
Mark 7:13: ...making void the Word of God by your tradition, which you have handed down. You do many things like this."
Galatians 1:6: I marvel that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you in the grace of Christ to a different gospel;
Galatians 1:7: and there isn't another gospel. Only there are some who trouble you, and want to pervert the Gospel of Christ.
Galatians 1:8: But even though we, or an angel from Heaven, should preach to you any gospel other than that which we preached to you, let him be cursed.
Galatians 1:9: As we have said before, so I now say again: if any man preaches to you any gospel other than that which you received, let him be cursed.
Galatians 1:10: For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? For if I were still pleasing men, I wouldn't be a servant of Christ.
Galatians 1:11: But I make known to you, brothers, concerning the Gospel which was preached by me, that it is not according to man.
Galatians 1:12: For neither did I receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came to me through Revelation of Jesus Christ.
Colossians 2:8: Be careful that you don't let anyone rob you through his philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the elements of the world, and not after Christ.
1st Timothy 2:5: For there is One God, and One Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
1st Timothy 2:6: who gave Himself as a Ransom for all; the Testimony in its own times;
Matthew 23:11: But he who is greatest among you will be your servant.
Matthew 23:12: Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
Test your Religion against the Scriptures above!
Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 9 October 2002 5:1:36
JG

Clash/JR
This is what I don't understand about Faith only/ Grace only. I believe in Grace. The problem with grace only is and feel free to correct me, you could under a grace only system never get out of favor of God. Theoretically I could be the biggest scumbag on earth lie cheat steal and still be saved if I BELIEVE. Common sense tells me if Moses was able to fall from favor, and he obviously Believed, why can't normal people also.
The thing that Peeves me is that people act as if we don't believe in grace. The same thing goes for Sola-scriptura and thinking we don't believe in the scripture. No we believe in Grace PLUS works and Solascriptura Plus the traditions of the apostles.
GracePlus
ScripturePlus
So we are hated for believeing the same thing you do and MORE.
Never did "get" that.
Sean
Mary,
Sorry hun but this is wrong. "When you are studying to become a priest, you don't even read the bible, it's all the Catacysm book - that's it."
I wish I had time to expand and pull bible references but I'm working clear until I leave on my hunting trip Wed night. But I will drag this up and try to comment next mon. when I get back.
Sean
A Paduan

I'm not sure if anyone's still reading this thread but anyway;
Rome believes that grace is infuesed or "injected" in to ones life t
Well, yep, and? I didn't read anything about grace coming from men in your example of "Romanism".
But something I did see was a bird the other day, and it flew grace-fully. I even saw a human who's life was grace-full, you know, didn't bump around hurting others - a gift from God.
But I'm not sure what you're getting at jr.
paduan
clash_city_rockers

JG/Sean,
I am glad to see you respond. First all I and not denying that Rome does not they believe in grace they do have a doctrine of grace but sadly thier doctrine on grace is woefully in error. They do not stick to the biblical teaching that grace is the favor of God. Rome teaches that it is a substance that is infuesed in you. Again previous post list scriptures that challenges your Rominist doctrine and yet you have not commented on those text. If you claim to believe in the bible then where are you scripture references that Rome has provided for you, since you like the JW can only read the bible and like the JW you are not allowed to exigite and interprate the scriptures.
JG/Sean with a lack of understanding biblical conversion and grace writes:
The problem with grace only is and feel free to correct me, you could under a grace only system never get out of favor of God. Theoretically I could be the biggest scumbag on earth lie cheat steal and still be saved if I BELIEVE
Lets go with the latter sentence first. The doctrine of conversion teaches that regenerastion one is made a new person that is he doesn't go back to his old ways of being a "biggest scum bag" God changes those who he has ALREADY declared justified once and for all. When one is save he then leaves his sinfull ways behind, this doesn't mean that he is garanteed perfection he may have relapses of sin that he now struggles with sin he repents God has already paid for that sin even sins as a Christian, but the sinner acknowleges his sin ask for forgivness and God is garantee his forgiveness. When one is an unbeliever he cannot fight against sin and temtation but when one is saved by faith alone he is a new creation and can now fight against sin and temtation. No it is God and his grace that preserves us that is God's promise. No if one goes on and lives a lawless life of evil it just testifies to the fact that he was never saved to begin with, and not that he lost his salvation because he never had it to begin with God did not show favor this person in the first place that is why he is evil.
As far as never getting out of favor with God how then can you give an account for this comforting promise to the believer that is found in scripture scripture.
Phil 1:6
6 being confident of this, that HE who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
Jude 24
24 To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy
Is your joy in legalism that you never will know that you have doen enough to stay in God's grace Sean? Does this yoke give you any comfort and joy? Yet this is what you get when you and rightfully so when you ignore the promises found in scripure! An ungodly legalistic yoke that is no better than the Watchtower no assurance for your future and no real joy and peace in your heart. The reason that you run to Rome is because you are still at war with God and you need salvation in Jesus Christ.
Our works of grace come from God and they are not maritorious as your church teaches but are a result of being a new creation now in Jesus Christ. Your doctrine of infusion nessesitates that your works are marit to earn the favor of God. One has to cooperate with this grace by his own free will if not he is toast before God. The problem with this is that it is not the the teaching of the bible. The bible teaches that a Christians does his good works are a result of the new birth his will has been changed his affections have been changed by the good disposition from God outside of anything the believer has done before, during or after his conversion experiance.
Phil 2:12-13
12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
These works are not marit but is an out working of gratitude for the grace that has been given to us.
Sanctification is simply living up to and growing into that which God has already declared you. That is Holy and Rightious.
JG/Sean who at this point mis-represent the biblical and reformed doctrines as well as his own churches position bares false witness when he writes
So we are hated for believeing the same thing you do and MORE
No Sean we do not believe in the same things. Moreover you do many Roman Catholics a disservice when you make such a false claim. Represent the RomanCatholic faith properly or don't represent Rome at all. If you wan't to represent your own personal feeling or your own cut and paist ecclectic theology then thats fine just don't call it Romanism.
clash_city_rockers

If JG/Sean really believes in the same doctrine as us Christians then he will easly agree with Chapter 11 of the Wesminster confession of faith. If he doesn't then his own claim, quote:
So we are hated for believeing the same thing you do and MORE.
Will be self-refuted by JG/Sean himself.
Chapter XI
Of Justification
I. Those whom God effectually calls, He also freely justifies;[1] not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for any thing wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone; nor by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing the obedience and satisfaction of Christ unto them,[2] they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness by faith; which faith they have not of themselves, it is the gift of God.[3]
II. Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification:[4] yet is it not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but works by love.[5]
III. Christ, by His obedience and death, did fully discharge the debt of all those that are thus justified, and did make a proper, real and full satisfaction to His Father's justice in their behalf.[6] Yet, in as much as He was given by the Father for them;[7] and His obedience and satisfaction accepted in their stead;[8] and both, freely, not for any thing in them; their justification is only of free grace;[9] that both the exact justice, and rich grace of God might be glorified in the justification of sinners.[10]
IV. God did, from all eternity, decree to justify all the elect,[11] and Christ did, in the fullness of time, die for their sins, and rise again for their justification:[12] nevertheless, they are not justified, until the Holy Spirit does, in due time, actually apply Christ unto them.[13]
V. God does continue to forgive the sins of those that are justified;[14] and although they can never fall from the sate of justification,[15] yet they may, by their sins, fall under God's fatherly displeasure, and not have the light of His countenance restored unto them, until they humble themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith and repentance.[16]
VI. The justification of believers under the Old Testament was, in all these respects, one and the same with the justification of believers under the New Testament.[17]
[1] ROM 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. ROM 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
[2] ROM 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. 2CO 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. ROM 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference. 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. TIT 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost. 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. EPH 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace. JER 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, The Lord Our Righteousness. 1CO 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. ROM 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
[3] ACT 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. GAL 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. PHI 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: ACT 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. EPH 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.
[4] JOH 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: ROM 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. ROM 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
[5] JAM 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. GAL 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
[6] ROM 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 1TI 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. HEB 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. DAN 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. ISA 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
[7] ROM 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
[8] 2CO 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. MAT 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. EPH 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
[9] ROM 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: EPH 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace.
[10] ROM 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. EPH 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
[11] GAL 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 1PE 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, ROM 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
[12] GAL 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law. 1TI 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. ROM 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
[13] COL 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight. GAL 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. TIT 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
[14] MAT 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 1JO 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1JO 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
[15] LUK 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. JOH 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. HEB 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
[16] PSA 89:31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; 32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes. 33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. PSA 51:7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. 8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. 9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. PSA 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. MAT 26:75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly. 1CO 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. LUK 1:20 And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak, until the day that these things shall be performed, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season.
[17] GAL 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. ROM 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead. HEB 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
clash_city_rockers
Just out of curiousity what do you make of Romans 9? How do you reconsile the plain teaching of Romans 9 with Roman Catholic Doctrine?
Read for yourself.
Romans 9

God's Mercy Is on Whom He Chooses
1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen [1] according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

Israel's Rejection and God's Purpose
(1) 6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called." [2] 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: "At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son." [3]
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." [4] 13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." [5]

Israel's Rejection and God's Justice
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." [6] 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy . 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." [7] 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As He says also in Hosea:

"I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved." [8]
26 "And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
"You are not My people,'
There they shall be called sons of the living God." [9]

27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: [10]

"Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.
28 For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the LORD will make a short work upon the earth." [11]

29 And as Isaiah said before:

"Unless the LORD of Sabaoth [12] had left us a seed,
We would have become like Sodom,
And we would have been made like Gomorrah." [13]

Present Condition of Israel
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. [14] 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. [15] For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

"Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." [16]
Footnotes
9:3 Or relatives
9:7 Genesis 21:12
9:9 Genesis 18:10, 14
9:12 Genesis 25:23
9:13 Malachi 1:2, 3
9:15 Exodus 33:19
9:17 Exodus 9:16
9:25 Hosea 2:23
9:26 Hosea 1:10
9:27 Isaiah 10:22, 23
9:28 NU-Text reads For the LORD will finish the work and cut it short upon the earth.
9:29 Literally, in Hebrew, Hosts
9:29 Literally, in Hebrew, Hosts
9:31 NU-Text omits of righteousness.
9:32 NU-Text reads by works.
9:33 Isaiah 8:14; 28:16
What I notice is that every Romanist who looks at this passage is very troubled and upset and even angered over this text. They usually say God isn't like that or it does not mean what it says. How about you JG? Do you share the same sentament as your fellow Papists do over this passage?
Edited by - clash_city_rockers on 9 October 2002 9:39:59
PurpleV

Let me try to sum up what I believe the essence of clash's post is:
Theoretically I could be the biggest scumbag on earth lie cheat steal and still be saved if I BELIEVE
If you believed, you wouldn't be such a big scumbag.
Hugs, V

Bash the Catholics here.

Test your Religion against the Scriptures above!

Chapter XI

Of Justification

Footnotes

Share this