March in Opposition?

by comforter 46 Replies latest jw friends

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Foot

    Please dont try to diminish what the marchers are doing in New York today. They are courageous people, with a clear since of right and wrong, trying to stop predators from destroying more victims

    I'm sorry you got the wrong angle on my post. It was to show how our understandings of human nature has improved from the times of the predators in the ot.

    Btw, sex w their own children, or even sacrificing their own children wasn't such a big issue back then.

    SS

    Edited by - saintsatan on 27 September 2002 20:9:35

  • Kenneson
    Kenneson

    Comforter, no organization has a monopoly on the holy spirit. Just the reverse. No organization is above God, but must submit to God. The Watchtower Society is not above repentance. "For there is nothing covered over that will not become uncovered, and secret that will not become known." (Matt. 20:26)

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    SaintSatan said:

    Btw, sex w their own children, or even sacrificing their own children wasn't such a big issue back then.

    SOMEONE thought it was a BIG DEAL back then:

    Leviticus 18:6: None of you shall draw near to any relative of his flesh to uncover their nakedness; I am Jehovah.
    Leviticus 18:7: You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father or the nakedness of your mother; she is your mother; you shall not uncover her nakedness.
    Leviticus 18:8: You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father's wife; it is the nakedness of your father.
    Leviticus 18:9: You shall not uncover the nakedness of your sister, the daughter of your father, or the daughter of your mother, born at home, or born away; you shall not uncover their nakedness.
    Leviticus 18:10: You shall not uncover the nakedness of your son's daughter, or your daughter's daughter; you shall not uncover their nakedness, for theirs is your own nakedness.
    Leviticus 18:11: The nakedness of the daughter of your father's wife, begotten by your father, she is your sister; you shall not uncover her nakedness.
    Leviticus 18:12: You shall not uncover the nakedness of a sister of your father; she is a relative of your father.
    Leviticus 18:13: You shall not uncover the nakedness of your mother's sister; for she is your mother's relative.
    Leviticus 18:14: You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father's brother; you shall not draw near to his wife; she is your aunt.
    Leviticus 18:15: You shall not uncover the nakedness of your daughter-in-law; she is your son's wife; you shall not uncover her nakedness.
    Leviticus 18:16: You shall not uncover the nakedness of your brother's wife; it is your brother's nakedness.
    Leviticus 18:17: You shall not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter; you shall not undertake to uncover her son's daughter, or her daughter's daughter; they are her relatives; it is wickedness.
    Leviticus 18:18: And you shall not take a wife with her sister, to vex her, to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her lifetime.

    Leviticus 20:11: And a man who lies with his father's wife, who has uncovered the nakedness of his father, both of them dying shall die; their blood shall be on them.
    Leviticus 20:12: And a man who lies with his daughter-in-law, both of them dying shall die; they have performed a perversion; their blood shall be on them.
    Leviticus 20:13: And a man who lies with a male as one lies with a woman, both of them have done a detestable thing, dying they shall die; their blood shall be on them.
    Leviticus 20:14: And a man who takes a woman and her mother, it is wickedness; they shall burn him and them; and there shall be no wickedness in your midst.
    Leviticus 20:15: And a man who lies with an animal dying shall die. And you shall kill the animal.
    Leviticus 20:16: And if a woman draws near to any animal to lie with it, you shall even put to death the woman and the animal; dying they shall die; their blood shall be on them.
    Leviticus 20:17: And if a man takes his sister, the daughter of his father or daughter of his mother, and he has seen her nakedness, and she sees his nakedness, it is a shame. And they shall be cut off before the eyes of the sons of their people; he has uncovered his sister's nakedness; he shall bear his iniquity.
    Leviticus 20:18: And if a man lies with a menstruous woman, and has uncovered her nakedness, he has made her fountain bare; and she has uncovered the fountain of her blood; even both of them shall be cut off from the midst of their people.
    Leviticus 20:19: And you shall not uncover the nakedness of your mother's sister, nor of your father's sister, because he has made naked his near kin; they shall bear their iniquity.
    Leviticus 20:20: If a man lies with his aunt, he has uncovered the nakedness of his uncle; they shall bear their sin; they shall die childless.
    Leviticus 20:21: And if a man takes his brother's wife, it is an unclean thing; he has uncovered his brother's nakedness; they shall be childless.

    Deuteronomy 22:30: A man shall not take his father's wife, and shall not uncover his father's skirt.

    Deuteronomy 27:19: Cursed is he who perverts the judgment of the alien, the fatherless, and widow! And all the people shall say, Amen!
    Deuteronomy 27:20: Cursed is he who lies with his father's wife, because he uncovers his father's skirt! And all the people shall say, Amen!
    Deuteronomy 27:21: Cursed is he who lies with any kind of animal! And all the people shall say, Amen!
    Deuteronomy 27:22: Cursed is he who lies with his sister, his father's daughter, or his mother's daughter! And all the people shall say, Amen!
    Deuteronomy 27:23: Cursed is he who lies with his mother-in-law! And all the people shall say, Amen!

    Ezekiel 22:11: And a man has done abomination with his neighbor's wife, and a man has defiled his daughter-in-law in unchaste acts. And in you a man has humbled his sister, his father's daughter.

    1st Chronicles 5:1: And the sons of Reuben the first-born of Israel (for he was the first-born; but since he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given to the sons of Joseph, the son of Israel; and the genealogy is not to be counted according to the birthright;

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Deuteronomy 18:10: There shall not be found in you one who passes his son or his daughter through the fire, one that uses divination, an observer of clouds, or one divining, or a whisperer of spells,
    Deuteronomy 18:11: or a magic charmer, or one consulting mediums, or a spirit-knower, or one inquiring of the dead.
    Deuteronomy 18:12: For all doing these things are an abomination to Jehovah. And because of these filthy acts Jehovah your God is dispossessing these nations before you.
    Deuteronomy 18:13: You shall be perfect with Jehovah your God.

  • Ephanyminitas
    Ephanyminitas

    SaintSatan, I found the source of the quote you used on page two. But isn't it referring to Christian times, not Old Testament days? Or do I need to get some sleep here?

    Edited by - ephanyminitas on 27 September 2002 23:33:52

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Undis

    God commanded abraham to kill his own child.

    Gen22:2 Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."

    God also had his own son killed, taking pleasure in it.

    Isa53:10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the LORD makes [3] his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand

    The laws you quoted were likely enforced when the average person broke them. But when their enforcement became difficult or inconvenient, then compromise was made. Here are some examples.

    Leviticus 18:15: You shall not uncover the nakedness of your daughter-in-law; she is your son's wife; you shall not uncover her nakedness.



    Judah does his own son's wife. They should both have been killed.

    Gen38:13 When Tamar was told, "Your father-in-law is on his way to Timnah to shear his sheep," 14 she took off her widow's clothes, covered herself with a veil to disguise herself, and then sat down at the entrance to Enaim, which is on the road to Timnah. For she saw that, though Shelah had now grown up, she had not been given to him as his wife.
    15 When Judah saw her, he thought she was a prostitute, for she had covered her face. 16 Not realizing that she was his daughter-in-law, he went over to her by the roadside and said, "Come now, let me sleep with you."
    "And what will you give me to sleep with you?" she asked.
    17 "I'll send you a young goat from my flock," he said.
    "Will you give me something as a pledge until you send it?" she asked.
    18 He said, "What pledge should I give you?"
    "Your seal and its cord, and the staff in your hand," she answered. So he gave them to her and slept with her, and she became pregnant by him. 19 After she left, she took off her veil and put on her widow's clothes again.
    20 Meanwhile Judah sent the young goat by his friend the Adullamite in order to get his pledge back from the woman, but he did not find her. 21 He asked the men who lived there, "Where is the shrine prostitute who was beside the road at Enaim?"
    "There hasn't been any shrine prostitute here," they said.
    22 So he went back to Judah and said, "I didn't find her. Besides, the men who lived there said, 'There hasn't been any shrine prostitute here.' "
    23 Then Judah said, "Let her keep what she has, or we will become a laughingstock. After all, I did send her this young goat, but you didn't find her."
    24 About three months later Judah was told, "Your daughter-in-law Tamar is guilty of prostitution, and as a result she is now pregnant."
    Judah said, "Bring her out and have her burned to death!"
    25 As she was being brought out, she sent a message to her father-in-law. "I am pregnant by the man who owns these," she said. And she added, "See if you recognize whose seal and cord and staff these are."
    26 Judah recognized them and said, "She is more righteous than I, since I wouldn't give her to my son Shelah." And he did not sleep with her again.
    27 When the time came for her to give birth, there were twin boys in her womb. 28 As she was giving birth, one of them put out his hand; so the midwife took a scarlet thread and tied it on his wrist and said, "This one came out first." 29 But when he drew back his hand, his brother came out, and she said, "So this is how you have broken out!" And he was named Perez. [1] 30 Then his brother, who had the scarlet thread on his wrist, came out and he was given the name Zerah. [2]

    Judah nevertheless, remained in the geneological line to jesus. Perez also got to be in jesus' geneology. Not bad for the incestous offspring of legally condemned people.
    Matthew 1:3Judah the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar, Perez the father of Hezron, Hezron the father of Ram,

    Leviticus 18:9: You shall not uncover the nakedness of your sister

    David's son amnon does his own sister tamar (not the same as the other tamar). Nothing is done by the priests, or anyone else for 2 yrs.

    2 Samuel 13:1 In the course of time, Amnon son of David fell in love with Tamar, the beautiful sister of Absalom son of David.
    2 Amnon became frustrated to the point of illness on account of his sister Tamar, for she was a virgin, and it seemed impossible for him to do anything to her.
    3 Now Amnon had a friend named Jonadab son of Shimeah, David's brother. Jonadab was a very shrewd man. 4 He asked Amnon, "Why do you, the king's son, look so haggard morning after morning? Won't you tell me?"
    Amnon said to him, "I'm in love with Tamar, my brother Absalom's sister."
    5 "Go to bed and pretend to be ill," Jonadab said. "When your father comes to see you, say to him, 'I would like my sister Tamar to come and give me something to eat. Let her prepare the food in my sight so I may watch her and then eat it from her hand.' "
    6 So Amnon lay down and pretended to be ill. When the king came to see him, Amnon said to him, "I would like my sister Tamar to come and make some special bread in my sight, so I may eat from her hand."
    7 David sent word to Tamar at the palace: "Go to the house of your brother Amnon and prepare some food for him." 8 So Tamar went to the house of her brother Amnon, who was lying down. She took some dough, kneaded it, made the bread in his sight and baked it. 9 Then she took the pan and served him the bread, but he refused to eat.
    "Send everyone out of here," Amnon said. So everyone left him. 10 Then Amnon said to Tamar, "Bring the food here into my bedroom so I may eat from your hand." And Tamar took the bread she had prepared and brought it to her brother Amnon in his bedroom. 11 But when she took it to him to eat, he grabbed her and said, "Come to bed with me, my sister."
    12 "Don't, my brother!" she said to him. "Don't force me. Such a thing should not be done in Israel! Don't do this wicked thing. 13 What about me? Where could I get rid of my disgrace? And what about you? You would be like one of the wicked fools in Israel. Please speak to the king; he will not keep me from being married to you." 14 But he refused to listen to her, and since he was stronger than she, he raped her.
    15 Then Amnon hated her with intense hatred. In fact, he hated her more than he had loved her. Amnon said to her, "Get up and get out!"
    16 "No!" she said to him. "Sending me away would be a greater wrong than what you have already done to me."
    But he refused to listen to her. 17 He called his personal servant and said, "Get this woman out of here and bolt the door after her." 18 So his servant put her out and bolted the door after her. She was wearing a richly ornamented [1] robe, for this was the kind of garment the virgin daughters of the king wore. 19 Tamar put ashes on her head and tore the ornamented [2] robe she was wearing. She put her hand on her head and went away, weeping aloud as she went.
    20 Her brother Absalom said to her, "Has that Amnon, your brother, been with you? Be quiet now, my sister; he is your brother. Don't take this thing to heart." And Tamar lived in her brother Absalom's house, a desolate woman.
    21 When King David heard all this, he was furious. 22 Absalom never said a word to Amnon, either good or bad; he hated Amnon because he had disgraced his sister Tamar.
    23 Two years later, when Absalom's sheepshearers were at Baal Hazor near the border of Ephraim, he invited all the king's sons to come there.

    The father of all having faith incested his half sister. It was no big thing.

    Genesis 20 :1 Now Abraham moved on from there into the region of the Negev and lived between Kadesh and Shur. For a while he stayed in Gerar, 2 and there Abraham said of his wife Sarah, "She is my sister." Then Abimelech king of Gerar sent for Sarah and took her.
    3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream one night and said to him, "You are as good as dead because of the woman you have taken; she is a married woman."
    4 Now Abimelech had not gone near her, so he said, "Lord, will you destroy an innocent nation? 5 Did he not say to me, 'She is my sister,' and didn't she also say, 'He is my brother'? I have done this with a clear conscience and clean hands."
    6 Then God said to him in the dream, "Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let you touch her. 7 Now return the man's wife, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you will live. But if you do not return her, you may be sure that you and all yours will die."
    8 Early the next morning Abimelech summoned all his officials, and when he told them all that had happened, they were very much afraid. 9 Then Abimelech called Abraham in and said, "What have you done to us? How have I wronged you that you have brought such great guilt upon me and my kingdom? You have done things to me that should not be done." 10 And Abimelech asked Abraham, "What was your reason for doing this?"
    11 Abraham replied, "I said to myself, 'There is surely no fear of God in this place, and they will kill me because of my wife.' 12 Besides, she really is my sister, the daughter of my father though not of my mother; and she became my wife.

    Leviticus 20:11: And a man who lies with his father's wife, who has uncovered the nakedness of his father, both of them dying shall die; their blood shall be on them.

    2Sam12:5David was furious with the rich man and said to Nathan, "I swear by the living LORD that the man who did this deserves to die! 6And because he didn't have any pity on the poor man, he will have to pay four times what the lamb was worth."
    7Then Nathan told David:
    You are that rich man! Now listen to what the LORD God of Israel says to you: "I chose you to be the king of Israel. I kept you safe from Saul 8and even gave you his house and his wives. I let you rule Israel and Judah, and if that had not been enough, I would have given you much more. 9Why did you disobey me and do such a horrible thing? You murdered Uriah the Hittite by having the Ammonites kill him, so you could take his wife.
    10"Because you wouldn't obey me and took Uriah's wife for yourself, your family will never live in peace. 11Someone from your own family will cause you a lot of trouble, and I will take your wives and give them to another man before your very eyes. He will go to bed with them while everyone looks on. 12What you did was in secret, but I will do this in the open for everyone in Israel to see."
    13-14David said, "I have disobeyed the LORD."
    "Yes, you have!" Nathan answered. "You showed you didn't care what the LORD wanted. [1] He has forgiven you, and you won't die. But your newborn son will." 15Then Nathan went back home. The LORD made David's young son very sick.

    God decides to break his own lays, when he feels vindictive. He plans to have david's son sleep w david's wives.

    2 Samuel 16:20Absalom turned to Ahithophel and said, "Give us your advice! What should we do?"
    21Ahithophel answered, "Some of your father's wives [1] were left here to take care of the palace. You should have sex with them. Then everyone will find out that you have publicly disgraced your father. This will make you and your followers even more powerful." 22Absalom had a tent set up on the flat roof of the palace, and everyone watched as he went into the tent with his father's wives.

    Absolom was to be killed. Yet david tried to interfere w the death of absolom. He obstructed the law. It was no big thing.

    1st Chronicles 5:1: And the sons of Reuben the first-born of Israel (for he was the first-born; but since he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given to the sons of Joseph, the son of Israel; and the genealogy is not to be counted according to the birthright;

    Reuben was demoted to an equal standing with his brothers. He wasn't special anymore. That's quite a punishment - not. Why wasn't reuben killed, like the law later commanded?

    Lot got drunk and had sex w his daughters, yet he was considered righteous.

    2 Peter 2:7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men

    It was no big thing.

    SS

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Ephan

    I got that from a site that said it was during ot times. I didn't save the url. It could have been the nt tradition as well. Here are others that give similar ages for girls' marriages in ot, ancient isreali times.

    http://quietwords.com/Marriage.html

    http://www.bridges-across.org/ba/powers/chart.htm

    http://www.theology.edu/marriage.htm

    SS

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