Dying you will not die?

Kagloo

I have a question that has puzzled me since I got my large print Bible.....

In GENESIS 2:17 it states.... But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die."

The footnote reads.... Lit.. " Dying you will die." Okay I understand that...

Now in GENESIS 3:4 it reads.... At this the serpent said to the woman: " You positively will NOT die." Okay... I understand that too...

But the footnote reads this way.... " You positively will not die." Lit "NOT DYING you will DIE."

Does that mean that the Devil was saying to Eve... " Look it's like this... Jehovah has not told you the whole story... what happens is this... Sure you will die in a physical sense but in reality you will not die altogether. i.e. you will continue to exist in some other form other than human."

Was this the first time that the lie about the immortality of the soul was raised?

Is that what it means when the Hebrew literally states... Dying YOU WILL NOT die?

I am no scholar but I would be interested to know exactly what this phrase " DYING YOU WILL NOT DIE " really means.

Answers... Points of View... please? Thanks.

COMF

It means the guys who wrote these oral traditions down had trouble expressing themselves clearly, and didn't bother to elaborate.

StinkyPantz

This is how I understand the statement. He simply said that from the day that they ate from the tree on they would start dying (like so many of us are "dying" right now) but will not die until the body completely deteriorates.

The real question is: was the Devil's statement more true than God's?

Navigator

I wouldn't worry about a literal translation. The tale is an allegory. The statement recognizes the author's understanding that the whole idea of separation from God, the very foundation of this system of things, is based on the belief in two powers, the power for good and the power for evil. Before they ate, they knew only God (Good). When God asks them why they were hiding in the garden, they reply that it is because they are naked. The following words are among the most profound in the Bible. "Who told you that you were naked?" It is, of course, an illusion. There is no reality to the power for evil, only an appearance. We are not now, and never have been separated from God. But it sure seems real to us.

Kagloo

NAVIGATOR:

Thanks for the reply.... You will have to bear with me... I must be a bit stupid. I understand exactly what you mean when you say the the Eden account is an allegory.. I'm not sure if I am ready to accept that such a view is accurate yet though!

You see.... I don't understand your point that we have never been seperated from God... If this is what being attached to God means I dread to think what actually being seperate from him is like... and besides... if we have never been seperated from him why send his perfect son as a ranson to facilitate a reconcilliation? I don't get it... Mind you that is nothing new these days.. there is so much that I was sure I understood that I'm not sure about anymore.

Thanks for the thoughts anyway.

Just a further point on the subject that I have never quite understood ( I told you I was stupid!)

Why, when they became aware that they were naked did Adam and Eve cover the genitals? I have never understood that! Why not cover their mouths...? Mouths can be a lot nastier than genitals!

Why not cover their eyes... after all it was their eyes that lead them to form a desire for the fruit in the first place wasn't it?

Why cover the very things that were their God given means of passing on the Divine gift of life?
Answers please!"

Thanks

Yerusalyim

I think the allegory refers to humankind (herein called "Men or man") wanting to determine for themselves what is good and evil, without reference to the perfect God WHO REALLY KNOWS what is good. In other words, man wanted to decide for himself if something was a sin or not, moral relativism! And yes, I think it speaks to a spiritual death as well as physical death. Note that before God used to talk to Adam and Eve, after this event they apparently no longer "saw" God. They were cast from that perfect place of resting in God. While they still had some contact with God, it had changed desperately. Yes, imagine, if being cut off from God a little now is bad, how much worse is being ETERNALLY CUT OFF from God in hell. Worse yet, those in Hell are there by choice. The one thing that could fufill the sense of longing in them, and they don't want it.

The making of clothing spoke to SACRAFICE not nudity. Man made his garments from leaves (we can not cover our sins ourselves) God made clothing for man from animal skins, i.e. shedding blood is necessary to cover sin.

Just my humble opinion.

Mike

(aka Yeru)

Navigator

Kaglo

I don't buy the concept of "ransome sacrifice" because I don't believe in a God that requires sacrifice. I do believe that Jesus came on his own because of his great love for us. I believe that he came to show us how to reconnect. If God's will is that we be one, it is pure arrogance to believe that we can defeat that will. The separation is only in our minds, not God's. We are every bit as much God's son as Jesus was. The difference is that he was not dreaming the dream of separtation and knew very well who he was.

Simon

So it's nothing to do with cloth and color then huh?

Kagloo

YERUSALYIM:

Excellent thought about the idea of 'covering' their important little bitz with leaves but God using animal skins perhaps denoting the need for a sacrifice... I have never looked at it like that! Although that doesn't address the question as to why the genitals were covered as opposed to any other specific part of the body does it.

And just how would you define Hell? Are you thinking of the idea of eternal death as being completely unconscious in Hades ( Mankinds common grave ) or the idea of an eternal conscious existence in a place of torment ( Hell Fire etc.)?

NAVIGATOR:

Thanks so much for the reply.

You believe that Jesus 'came' ; Came from where?

Also.. you say that we are just as much God's sons as Jesus was... That's a wonderful thought. The only problem I have with that is that...

1. Jesus apparently has a pre-human existence in the spirit realm ( Prov:8) and he himself said that he 'was' before the world was !
Sadly I cannot lay claim to a similar existence.

2. He talks about himself as the only begotten Son of God. Only begotten meaning the only direct sentiant creation of the Creator as I understand it. As one of over six billion humans concieved by natural means here on the earth I'm afraid I don't measure up in that department either. I wish I did!

3. Jesus himself stated that he came into the world to offer his life '' in behalf of the world ; and the apostle Paul said that the whole point of the ransom was the reconciliation of men to God. That would hardly make sense if we had never been alienated from Him... Would it?

4. When Jesus gave up his earthly life he gave up the right to father a perfect human race which he could have done if he had wanted... he carried the perfect genetic material in his genes.. and as seen from his own birth it was possible to have a perfect child born from an imperfect woman (Mary) And as I understand it he then used that 'ransom' to purchase..or to buy... or to adopt the whole human family. So in that regard he has become our Eternal Father... as Isaiah said. I'm afraid that my fathering of children stopped at just 2! So I'm not the same in that regard either.

Anyway... that just my point of view....

Thanks for the reply.. it was certainly food for thought!

Navigator

Kagloo

Jesus came from heaven, which is not a place but a state of consciousness.

There is only one son, and we are all part of that sonship. We are all one, with God and with each other. Jesus came to help restore that sense of oneness. "The things that I do, shall ye do also, and greater things shall ye do...".Jesus is still here, just vibrating on a higher frequency. He is still communicating with those who are willing to tune up to that higher frequency. Check out Budda, Krishna, Laotze, A Course in Miracles.

Of course you have had a spiritual existence before life on this plane. You just don't remember. You will have a life after this one as well. Part of the price for admission on this plane is that we we forget who and what we really are. How else can we pretend to be doing our own thing? Jesus came for a different purpose so did not block that awareness. God made you perfect, whole, and complete. Do you really think you can change that? Stop thinking of yourself as a flesh body. You are so much more! You have enrolled in a crash course in spiritual development. You can drop the class or sleep through it but, if you do, you will have to repeat it. However, we will complete the course eventually. There are no failing grades.

Dying you will not die?

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