Dr. Bergman

by Jerry Bergman 109 Replies latest watchtower medical

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  Joyzabel

  I think, Jerry, to draw the conclusion that the Freeman boys committed patricide due to their religion is not looking at the whole picture. I will agree that had the Freemans belong to another religion that was not so highly controlling and they could follow-up with their sons needed mental and chemical treatment, things may have turned out differently. Early interventions in psychopathic personalities sometimes work.

  I agree with Larc that Schizophrenia and Bipolar disorder are genetic as well as I believe chemical dependency. So I object to you asserting that psychosis is more prevalent in the Witness culture and then site the Freemans as an example without documenting David's multiple admissions for rehabilitation for alcohol and chemical dependencies or as one of his psychiatrists, Dr. Carol Lynn Crutchley had reported him as "high risk for the future development of anti-social personality disorder. Prognosis was very guarded. David Freeman does not have empathy for others." As Fred Rosen then said "a classic psychopath does not feel guilt, does not feel what it is like to be someone else"... ( Blood Crimes pg 124-125)

  David and Bryan had more problems than just their religious upbringing that led them to the horrendous murders. But I will agree that their religious upbringing and the high control effect of the witnesses contributed to them easily turning to the skinhead group and committing hate crimes.

  Thank you for clarifying your thoughts here, Jerry. I hope to hear more from you.

  j2bf (of the not everything is black and white class)

  ps, you added your last comment while I was posting. I agree with "a component was genetic but a critical factor was the environment".

  Edited by - joy2bfree on 2 September 2002 20:20:56
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  larc

  Jerry, here are some stats to consider. One percent of the population is schizophrenic. However, with identical twins, if one becomes schizophrenic, then 50% of the twins also become schizophrenic. Fifty times the base rate is powerful evidence of the importance of genetics. Most psychologists and psychiatrists today consider schizophrenia to be a geneticaly inhereted brain desease. There are no empirical studies that show a link to any environmental factor and psychosis. Now, are psychotic people more likely to become JWs? Unlikely. If they were in a psycotic state, the JWs would not study with them, as they would consider them demonized. If they were pre-pyschotic, then the odds are one percent that they would become a JW, and then have a psychotic episode. I remember one study I read, unfortunately it was a long time ago, and can't provide a reference. The military kept records on the incidence of neurosis and psychosis in the Armed Services during war and peace time. Neurotic conditions were much higher during times of war, with it's associated stress. However, schizophrenia remained at a constant one percent regardless of war or peace. This is pretty good evidence that the major psychoses are not due to environmental stress.
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  jst2laws

  Jerry,

  I too have been skeptical but not openly critical of your work, as far as what I have read. Of course at the time I was an elder, but a dissident. I am glad to see these questions addressed here.

  I personally believe that emotional and psychological problems exist in abundance among the witnesses. It would be wonderful if in this field one was able to startle the world with irrefutable facts in the understated manner typical of Ray Franzs work. Hope you can do it Jerry.

  Farkel,

  You are a big man. You get another "G".

  Jst2laws
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  Jerry Bergman

  A brief clarification. I did not draw the conclusion that the Freeman boys committed patricide due to their religion but that religion was very important in this case (I consulted on this case so was able to look at not only the court records but many documents). I strongly encourage everyone to read the book and then judge. A major point was that had the Freeman's belong to another religion that was not so highly controlling and they could have obtained the needed mental and chemical treatment, things may have turned out differently. Early intervention with psychopathic personalities (and I am not so sure that all the boys had psychopathic personalities, although one of them probably did. The court found them all sane and not psychopathic. But this could be due to the legal and medical standard, and these are not always the same) sometimes do work (and those in the business like to believe it often works).

  Also, I did not assert primarily that psychosis was more prevalent in the Witness culture but that mental illness was (and the line between psychosis and less severe forms of mental illness is often not easy to draw). Also, the boys were all off drugs after they became skin heads so it shows that they could have been helped. It is true that David and Bryan had more problems than just their religious upbringing that led them to the horrendous murders, but I am only saying that their religious upbringing and the high control effect of the witnesses contributed in a major way to what they did.

  Thanks for the vote "Thank you for clarifying your thoughts here, Jerry. I hope to hear more from you" Judging from some of the posts on here I was disliked even more than the Watchtower!!! .The Watchtower has done all they can to paint me as a super bad guy and it all st arted when I tried to help the witnesses with mental health problems! Does anyone know anything about Firpo Carr?
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  Jerry Bergman

  As to the observation that "schizophrenia remained at a constant one percent regardless of war or peace. This is pretty good evidence that the major psychoses are not due to environmental stress" my concern is I have spent a lot of time trying to diagnosis mental illness and it is not always so straight forward. In the case of one client, several psychologists diagnoses him as psychotic but judging from my time with him, I judged him as neurotic. When I asked him about this he said that he felt a lot more comfortable with me (he was a Witness) than the other doctors and this is why he behaved so differently with me. He got on mental disability (all his bills are now paid by the state) and I objected (I felt he could survive in society with help). The other doctors just never saw this side of him so could not understand my conclusions. They judged him a full blown schizophrenic Actually I liked him and felt that he had much potential, yet he is now in some type of group home setting for psychotic patients. I had many experiences like that. Some clients were fairly normal much of the time, but were in a psychotic state at times. How do we judge these? Many of us go into a psychotic like state at times as well, so are we psychotic? Some researchers do not even like to use the psychosis neurotic dichotomy (or at least use it with extreme caution). I often felt that the schizophrenia category was a catch all term that was useful but far from perfect. Also, my research on schizophrenia is coming along good. Some experts think a major (or at least an important) factor is diet! One study concluded that heredity predisposes but is not destiny. To become schizophrenic often requires both heredity and the environment (this is my experience). If it was purely heredity, all without exception of those with the gene would become schizophrenic, yet the twins studies show less than half do. Just some thoughts. Also, some therapists resist using any label, but describe only symptoms.
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  larc

  Jerry, some thoughts off the top of my head. Genetics has to be a very potent factor if the rate of schizophrenia is 50 times the base rate among identical twins. Now, why the other 50% are not affected is a mystery. Since the environment for twins is nearly identical, that can't be it either. Perhaps, the difference goes back to the womb. Who knows? On the subject of diagnosis, some are obviously psychotic. Is someone hallucinates and is dellusional, they are psychotic. I know a guy who believes the following: he is fifth in line to be president, if our president dies, he is an officer in the Navy (he has never been in the armed services), he is going to be president in a few years he has picked his cabinet already, every number from one to 30 has special meaning, I was hired by his father to put him under survielance, his buick is equiped with missles. Now, would you say that he is delusional? Some diagnoses are easy to make. Now, regarding the misdiagnosis of JWs. If you told a psychiatrist that Jesus came to power in 1914, but it was invisible. Satan was thrown out of heaven, down to the earth, and that was invisible, demons may live in used furnature. How would you be diagnosed- paranoid schizophrenic, even if you were an average JW, and were not psychotic.
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  Jerry Bergman

  Psychologists do use these criteria, but it is a violation of ethics and most know (or should know) that most religions hold beliefs that are similar to the Witnesses such as the belief that the end is near or the water literally becomes wine, and such. The studies that I referenced, from what I could gather, used life adjustment as the primary or only criteria (could they hold a job, interact without violence with family, did they assume cationic states etc.). In the Australian study the patients were committed by themselves or the family (often whom were Witnesses). The criteria was not religious beliefs but the ability to live in society. The many people I worked with were judged psychotic not because of religious beliefs but purely because they could not make it in society (both the Witness and secular society) without serious help. The same is true of many of the studies that I researched.
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  Jerry Bergman

  I meant the wine literally becomes blood as the Catholic Church teaches. These people really do have problems and are not locked up because they believe Christ returned in 1914.
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  bluesapphire

  In my busy schedule juggling full time job, three kids, hubby, pregnancy, soccer, etc. etc., I haven't been able to keep up with the thread. But I just wanted to say that it is very very interesting and it will get the attention it deserves slowly but surely.

  Farkel, your humanity is showing. If you're ever in California again I wish you would do me the honor of letting me make you dinner.

  Jerry, thanks for not disappearing. I'm glad you're here to defend yourself. As for your question about psychological problems I can give you a few examples:

  1. I myself was going through a post-partum depression (actually I had some symptoms of psychosis) at the time I became interested in the JWs. I was suicidal although (thank God) too scared to do anything about it. I wished for death more days than not. The JWs came to me and were selling hope so I bought it. Although I got better with time, I was always depressed in the organization. Intellectually, I knew things didn't add up. When I finally began to recover, I also began to see that I was in a cult and left.

  2. My husband has been depressed his entire life. He was reared in JWism since he was an infant.

  3. My sister who is a hard-core JW who was sucked in by none other than myself was also depressed and in the market for hope. She continues to display symptoms of obsessive/compulsive disorder; she is also manic/depressive.

  4. People I knew of in the hall who were depressed (some on medication and two who were so dysfunctional they are on social security for disability): Lucy, Sharon, Dominic, Carolyn, Laura, Joyce, Guy, Joanne, Judy, Lloyd, Brenda, .... actually this list could go on and on if I think about all the JWs I ment along the way who were suffering from depression. The ones I mention by name were I believe severely depressed.

  Well, that's all for now. Please keep this thread alive. Thanks.

  Edited by - bluesapphire on 5 September 2002 23:53:23
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  larc

  Jerry, if someone can not make in society or at the Kingdom Hall, does not mean they are psychotic. There are a myriad of mental conditions that could cause this, e.g, depression, agoraphobia, personality disorders, mania, chemical dependency, etc. Psychosis is easily defined and measured, has someone who hallucinates and/or is dellusional. (See my example in a previous post of someone's delusional thinking.) I still think that the major psychoses are genetic and the JW culture has nothing to do with it. As I have stated before, I do believe, as you, that neurosis is very high within the Witness culture.