Check out www.dianewilson.net and click the word "articles" True, if someone can not make in society or at the Kingdom Hall, does not mean they are psychotic but I have found psychosis not very easily defined and measured. Many of my clients hallucinated and/or were delusion but the talking therapy was successful with a number of them. Also, another thought. In teaching abnormal psychology for over 15 years I (and the text) consistently stressed that one-third of all schizophrenics get better with therapy, one-third stay the same the same, and one-third get worse no matter what you do. If biology was destiny, this would not occur. A major point I stressed with all my patients, even those diagnosed as schizophrenic, was you are the master of your ship, only you have control of the rudder which takes it through the water. Some, even those that were psychotic, got better with therapy alone. If it was purely genetic, the talking cure would not work in any case. You can not talk someone out of dark skin or blue eyes or other genetic traits. I always stressed that genes determine potential limits but only you determine how close you reach those limits. Also, witness the common situation where 2 famous psychiatrists testify a person accused of a crime was insane when he murdered the victim and 2 equally famous psychiatrists with as many books to their name testify he was sane when he committed the crime.
Dr. Bergman
by Jerry Bergman 109 Replies latest watchtower medical
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Jerry Bergman
Check out www.dianewilson.net and click the word "articles" True, if someone can not make it in society or at the Kingdom Hall, does not mean they are psychotic but I have found psychosis is not very easily defined and measured. Many of my clients hallucinated and/or were delusion but talking therapy was successful with a number of them. Also, another thought. In teaching abnormal psychology for over 15 years I (and the text) consistently stressed that one-third of all schizophrenics get better with therapy, one-third stay the same the same, and one-third get worse no matter what you do. If biology was destiny, this would not occur. A major point I stressed with all my patients, even those diagnosed as schizophrenic, was you are the master of your ship, only you have control of the rudder which takes it through the water. Some, even those that were psychotic, got better with therapy alone. If it was purely genetic, the talking cure would not work in any case. You can not talk someone out of dark skin or blue eyes or other genetic traits. I always stressed that genes determine potential limits but only you determine how close you reach those limits. Also, witness the common situation where 2 famous psychiatrists testify a person accused of a crime was insane when he murdered the victim and 2 equally famous psychiatrists with as many books to their name testify he was sane when he committed the crime. True psychosis does not always equal insane but they are not different sides of the same coin either.
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larc
Jerry, what do mean by better? I don't think talking therapy will cure a schizophrenic of hallucinations, nor will it stop their dellusional thinking.
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Jerry Bergman
It has worked with a number of my clients (their vivid hallucinations were gone) and in one third of all schizophrenic patents (although now days a lot of these used medical treatment as well). I wish it was as easy as you imply to dichotomize psychotic and neurotic patients. It is often not hard, but many cases is very difficult. You must read "A Mind that Found Itself" by Clifford Beers and "The Eden Express" by Kirt Vonnegut, both now classics on how one was totally healed from clear psychosis and remained so for decades afterward, only by reasoning therapy, not medical treatment. A ton of similar literature exists along the same line. Another well known case is a Judge (I can not remember his name now) who was totally psychotic and got better and again became a leader in his community (this was before drugs). My experience is certainly not unusual. Let me know what you think of these books. Many of these books point to the environment as critical (but I agree with you, genes are critical, at least in many cases. After all I now teach genetics).
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larc
Jerry, there are a few schizophrenics who do recover, but it doesn't seem to be related to any particualar treatment method. It is a mystery as to how that happens. I still am doubtful that talking to them can get them to stop hallucinating. I can not comment any further until I read your references, which may take awhile.
In the mean time, I am interested in the particular method you used, and the success rate you experienced.
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Cassiline
(is anybody reading my posts??)~~ Jerry Bergman
Yes, and here are some of my thoughts. One being totally unrelated to the others.
True, if someone can not make in society or at the Kingdom Hall, does not mean they are psychotic but I have found psychosis not very easily defined and measured. Many of my clients hallucinated and/or were delusion but the talking therapy was successful with a number of them. Also, another thought. In teaching abnormal psychology for over 15 years I (and the text) consistently stressed that one-third of all schizophrenics get better with therapy, one-third stay the same the same, and one-third get worse no matter what you do. If biology was destiny, this would not occur. A major point I stressed with all my patients, even those diagnosed as schizophrenic, was you are the master of your ship, only you have control of the rudder which takes it through the water. Some, even those that were psychotic, got better with therapy alone. If it was purely genetic, the talking cure would not work in any case. You can not talk someone out of dark skin or blue eyes or other genetic traits. I always stressed that genes determine potential limits but only you determine how close you reach those limits. Also, witness the common situation where 2 famous psychiatrists testify a person accused of a crime was insane when he murdered the victim and 2 equally famous psychiatrists with as many books to their name testify he was sane when he committed the crime.~~Jerry Burgman
I agree true psychotic behavior is far from easy to diagnosis. But your comments above have me wondering what your meaning was. You speak of talking therapy being successful in treating patients who are diagnosed with schizophrenia.
Forgive me Jerry Bergman but to suggest that a patient with true schizophrenia can be helped with talking therapy only boggles my mind, examination of a patient who exhibit true schizophrenic behaviors, i.e. audio and visual hallucinates, delusions, suicidal tendency, homicidal tendency etc. are normally treated with pharmaceuticals.Perhaps this is a new form of therapy I have yet to hear of? I have heard of several self professed cures if you will, one being recently made into a movie, A beautiful Mind, after years of unsuccessful treatment he declares he has cured himself.
Those patients who are and have been diagnosed the usual course of therapy normally includes pharmacological treatment, sometimes for years at a time. Not withstanding prophylactic therapy for possible reoccurring episodes. Can you truly tell me that you as a psychoanalyst would tell a true schizophrenic you are the master of your ship while un-medicated? And hope that this talking therapy will better him or her of their audio/visual hallucinations, suicidal/homicidal thoughts?
Treatment for comorbid conditions (I am speaking of alcoholism and drug addiction etc.), which have been found to be a contribution to some psychotic episodes, may be treated with talking therapy and in time helping a truly schizophrenic patient who is being medicated. Interventions are designed to provide patients with education regarding the outcome of the diagnosed illness. Patients are then instructed in medication self-management and symptom self-management. Patients are also instructed to identify relapse warning signs. Here one could be the master of their ship (IMO) after proper medical procedures have been carried out.
Your analogy of the psychologists testimony of an accused person being sane or insane just convolutes which you have already spoken of. As its true in any court case that Prosecuting and the defense teams are going to find the person who they believe will tip the scales of justice in their clients favor. Most cases involving insanity pleas are those of temporary insanity. Temporary insanity and true schizophrenia are two different arenas of medicine.
As I said above I had a comment which did not relate to the above. You made it earlier in this thread. (ok, ok call me picky)
An example is, if I did a study of Idiot Savants (a retarded person who cannot function in society, yet has a rare talent such as he can out perform a calculator)~~Jerry Bergman
I take issue with your use of the word idiot savant. I prefer the new terminology of 'autistic savant', which is the current label that describes a rare condition marked by severe mental and social deficits but also by a gifted talent. "Retarded person" and "Idiot" sound so discriminating to me.
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Dia
What's the Firpo Carr story?
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Jerry Bergman
Do a search for Firpo Carr (an author) on Amazon.com. He is a would be reformer of the Watchtower and has written an interesting book
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Jerry Bergman
That a patient with true schizophrenia can be helped with talking therapy may boggle your mind, but many cases exist (see the books I noted above and even to some extent the case you cited in the movie a beautiful mind which compound talk therapy with self therapy -which is actually involved in most talk therapy cases). Most studies show that schizophrenic behaviors, i.e. audio and visual hallucinations, delusions, suicidal tendencies, homicidal tendencies etc. are most effectively treated with BOTH pharmaceuticals and talk therapy, although often the talk therapy is ignored because of the cost. Also, one tells a true schizophrenic you are the master of your ship while medicated, and few therapists believe that talking therapy will alone deal with audio/visual hallucinations, suicidal/homicidal thoughts. Most rely heavily on medicine (some feel too much so and this is a major criticism of psychiatry today)
I agree that one would normally stress that one should be the master of their ship (IMO) after proper medical procedures have been carried out, but some stress this thoughout therapy .
You note that temporary insanity and true schizophrenia are two different arenas of medicine. True, but it is not so simple. Have you read much about the Andrea Yates case?? I have worked with many similar cases where one was really insane than and now but this does not make much difference if one wants to win a case.
As to the word idiot savant, the new terminology 'autistic savant' may be preferred now but some argue that there exist two different types of savants. The former have very low IQs and the latter can be close to normal, such as the classic Rainman story. This is my conclusion
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Jerry Bergman
I have just reviewed part of a new graduate thesis titled "the Psychosocial Implications of Exiting Jehovah's Witnesses" by Robert Morano. It again confirms my conclusions about the mental health problem in the Witnesses. When I complete it I will review it for the site. Also, I read an excellent book in graduate school about using behaviorism to treat mental illness including psychosis and remember several cases of catatonics treated by behaviorism (rewording behavior wanted and punishing behavior not wanted). I loaned it out to our minister and never got it back. I will try, and will then review the book for this site. I too worked with several catatonics (all Witnesses) and had good success with talking therapy in one case (this case was so bad she was hospitalized and was in a catatonic state for weeks and had to be fed through a tube or she would die. As far as I know she is fine today. One of the worse cases I have seen.